Ep 189 - Psychological Safety Isn’t a Tick-Box: Leadership, risk & workplace culture with Ebony Dignan

Psychological safety is now written into workplace legislation — but what does that actually mean for leaders, managers, and teams in practice?

In this episode of Get Jasched, Jess is joined by Ebony Dignan, Director of EJD Advisory, for a grounded, practical conversation about psychological safety, leadership responsibility, and workplace culture — and why compliance alone is never enough.

Ebony brings her expertise in governance, risk management, and advisory work to unpack how organisations can move beyond box-ticking exercises and into real behavioural change that supports both people and performance.

Together, we explore:

• What psychological safety legislation means in practice for leaders
• Why leadership behaviour sets the tone for workplace culture
• The role of communication, trust, and self-reflection in managing psychosocial risks
• Why one-size-fits-all wellbeing approaches often miss the mark
• How middle managers shape day-to-day safety and culture
• The importance of proactive check-ins — not “set and forget” frameworks
• How strong people practices support retention, resilience, and business performance

This episode is especially relevant for business owners, leaders, directors, and managers navigating increasing expectations around psychological safety — and wanting to do it well, not just legally.

A timely, human conversation about responsibility, trust, and building workplaces where people can perform and feel secure.

Transcript

Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Get Jasched.Today I'm excited to have with me my friend Ebeny Dignan, who is the director of EJD Advisory, providing strategic on-demand council, risk management and governance support that empowers and upskills internal teams for management to prioritize and focus on strategy and growth, and embed strong compliance and practical risk management frameworks.Ebeny was also named Modern Counsel 35 Under 35 Women in Defence Finalist for Legal in 2023, and Defence Lawyer of the Year Finalist in 2023.So, thank you for this opportunity to, I don't know, glaze you up a little bit and just shout it from the rooftops everything you've already done and recognized for, and thanks for joining us.Thank you for such a lovely introduction, Jess.So fun.It's one of my favorite things about having guests on the podcast, is getting to just have them sit there and take it, like haveAnd just get to, like, just read some of their accolades and some of the things that they've achieved or experienced.Um, it's just a really nice feeling to do, so yes.That's just an aside, but it's really fun.But I know that some people are gonna hear things like governance, risk management, risk management counsel, like, you know, and, and maybe it's one of those areas that might sound a little dry, but I also know that a lot of the conversations we have had, it's actuallyIt can be quite interesting, um, especially when it comes to leadership and how we show up in work and how we, um, create environments and cultures that, in this case, are becoming more and more, um, related to, to psychological safety and psychological hazards.So, we know now every state across Australia has regulations that govern the management of psychological hazards.Um, in 2023, Queensland brought in a code of practice that recognizes psych safety in the same way as physical safety.On the 1st of December in 2025, Victoria brought in that legislation that is, I think, the strictest standards of psychological safety or hazards legislation that we have seen.And we're not going to unpack all of that today, but what weWhat we are going to do is just discuss how that impacts actual behaviors in the workplace, and leadership, and moving from just box ticking exercises to actually practicing it.Um, maybe because the legislation tells us to or because we recognize that it is important to do, regardless of legislation.That's my personal professional belief.But yeah, how do youSo it's a broad first question, but how do you see that difference in leadership's responsibility on setting these standards?I, I think leadership, there is an inherent amount of trust in leadership, and to ensure that you are looking after that trust with the team around you, of the business and its success, uh, you really need to be open to self-reflection.And self-reflection on where the risks are within your business, and for the point of this conversation-the psychological risks and safety hazards, uh, that may present across the business and engage with your staff.Youfirst point is always yourself, where you see risks are, but secondly, it should be engaging with personnel withoutside of yourself within the business that will give you further insights that might, um, be in your blind spots to make sure that everyone is feeling safe and secure in the environment in which they work.Hmm.So I knowIf anyone has listened to me speak professionally before or listened to the podcast, I always come back to this topic, but it just shows up.So you're saying it's all about how we communicate?Yes.Oh.Imagine that.Yes.Well, youEveryone's an individual.They see different things.Mm-hmm.They feel different things.Um, they are a unique individual and I think part of psychosocial safety is recognizing the individual people within your team and what they need to feel safe- Mm-hmm.and where they see risk in the business, because stress for you or I could be very different things.And, and you can attempt to standardize that by seeing hazards, putting controls in place, putting in, um, standardized frameworks for behaviors and expectations.But fundamentally, um, that there needs to be input as to how that is implemented across the business for the individual.And that, that makes so much sense to me and to you.Like, that makes, that makes so much sense in, uh, in the perspective of it is important to ask people what they need to beLike, I always, I, you know, if I'm working with different directors and, and guiding them on this, it's always like, "Start, if you can, where you can, start with, you know, the recruitment process, the interview process.What is it that you need to be successful and to feel successful in this role?"And that comes down to those needs as well.What, what makes you feel safe and secure?And, you know, I wanna get to the whole conversation about, like, challenging conversations doesn't mean a lack of safety.It's just, you know, sometimes it's just needed.But it's also, it's like offering perks that don't, aren't relevant to staff.It's like offering, "Oh, you get free childcare.That's one of the key perks for all staff."And, and it's pe- there's people who don't have kids who are like, "Cool.Not gonna use this.W- like, what a- what about me?Like, you know, w- what else can I get in lieu of that?"And just not having that variation.So, I think it's one of those s- many of those, really, conversations that we need to be proactively having, where it's check-ins and where it's maybe standardising processes to, to, like, and timelines to have those conversations.Like, you can standardise things around it.But really asking the question, "What is important to you?"And then, yes, going back and assessing, "Is this in relation to psychological safety or is this just like a, 'We want this'?"You know, like really- Okay.you know, discerning and assessing.But, but having those conversations and making it a secure place to receive the answers.Yes.Mm-hmm.And I think that that changes as you trickle down into the organization, depending on how many layers of hierarchy you have- Mm-hmm.how big the team is.But if we, if we sat there and spoke about that with a business that had one director, one senior manager, and 5 direct reports, that process of engaging with them to work out, well, what's the standard of conduct that we expect here, like, what's our baseline?And then what do we as a collective team want that may be above and beyond that baseline that's expected, um, by the law, by society as common practice, like, really- Mm-hmm.2-shoe and 3-shoe.Um, but where do we sit on that spectrum there as to what we wanna see in our work environment?That would be a very different conversation to where you're working with a, a team of maybe 100 staff, where you have your direct reports are m- maybe 10, but then their direct reports are 20, 30 staff.Mm-hmm.Um, that then there's an element of training.So you might set the tone at the top, but how is that filtering down?How are you getting that buy-in from all levels of the organization and have it flow up?Um, because I, I think if consistency is key.You may be having the conversation up here around what, what I as director, as CEO of the organization, feel is best for our organization- Mm-hmm.uh, "And this is what I want you to trickle down.Go forth and see what you get," um, as in you buy in from your teams below you, and then we can adjust and adapt accordingly.But it does need to be inclusive, and it does need to consult with all levels of the staff, but this is what we're, what we're saying and, and training that through the organization.Mm-hmm.It's very similar to, um, my approach with, with leadership training and well-being in an organization as well.And well-being, like, it is one of those things that I'm, I'm not a HR professional or a legal professional, so i- it's adjacent to this psychological safety, and it helps support it, but I'm not the one advising on that.But, you know, the- Yep.leadership training, my, my approach to that is it starts from the top.It has to be normalized culturally from the top, but exactly as you're saying, it also has to have a mechanism to not just trickle down where it gets less and less and less the more it trickles, but, like, it has to have a mechanism to flow through the, the ranks, the so-called ranks or the hierarchy or any, any sort of, um, chain of authority there, where it is just as strong towards the other end as it isat that director level, that executive, executive level.And it needs to both be led from that place so that the model is set, like the example is set, the model can be followed, but also, I think it makes me think of how leaders need to be aware of how their, let's say, middle managers are behaving towards their staff too, because there is that ongoing responsibility.And I know from what I hear about some, you know, like, larger organizations, that is usually where the challenge is.Like, people are struggling with that because they don't have access to the higher-ups to just sort of go, "This is how I'm experiencing work.This is how I'm treating, being treated."It's all of these things.And, and I think it's, it's the middle management that have the responsibility in that instance to personalize what that standard baseline position is.It's in the tone of how they deliver the messages.It's in howIt's in the key words that their staff respond to and, and understand.It's the, the language that suits the work that they're doing, the personality types that are in the team, um, the trust that sits within the team, or the relationships that, that, that sit there.Um, in, in a large organization, um, the person at the top may not necessarily have the insights that the management, the middle management have to allow that to happen, which is where there is safety, typically, there is trust.Mm-hmm.And to have trust, there has to be that one-to-one knowledge of the individuals, i- in my personal opinion.No, I agree.I, I think that's why it does work both ways.Like, because leadership have the authority, yes, and they can set the standard.And middle management, like, whatever you want to call it, but middle management are the ones that h- are on the front lines , you know?Like they are more aware of the more personal issues just because by nature of their roles, and leadership higher than that needs to take that under advisement.I think this is also how they step out of just ticking boxes.Absolutely.That being said, I will say that there also needs to be an avenue available for staff to go around middle management where they , as you rightly point out, don't meet those same standards.Uh- Yeah.and sometimes businesses can fall down in that as well.Mm-hmm.They don't do the surveys.They don't do the direct engagement management or the senior management are not available for open door policies just to have someone pop in and say, "How are you going?"Yeah.Um, and, and so I think it isThere does need to be a, a fail-safe mechanism- Mm-hmm.um, to support that too, because otherwise, if the, if you are just following the direct line of authority, um, things can get kept at a lower level, um, particularly when you're looking at things like bullying, j- job demands, and stress levels.If, if the team members are sitting there saying, "I'm ha- I'm stressed," management's- Mm-hmm.sitting there saying, "Crack on, do more, keep going, you'll be fine," um, how do they get around that?How do they get the support?Yeah.There needs to be that, that secondary fail-safe.I agree.Like, and I think the more rigid the hierarchy is in an organization, the harder that becomes.Like I, w- we both in different ways, but I, ha- I partake in a lot of research into defense, like- Mm-hmm.or, you know, or adjacent, and, and that hierarchy is so, um, set in stone, which serves a purpose in, in military level, sure, but when it comes to there's no HR department, so when it comes to navigating through challenges, there is a bit of a block of, "Well, you don't go beyond your chain of command," like you, you don't jump that.And then you see that in organizations too, where they, the larger they are, the moreUm, I think I told this story a few episodes ago, but, you know, like, even in relative, not even large, large organizations, but relatively medium organizations, I remember being, um, questioned about why I said good morning to the CEO and, and asked how his weekend was, and, and, and suggested that that was unprofessional.And it was like open plan office, it wasn't likeThere wasn't any weird, any weird about it, but it was like, "Oh.That's weird that you spoke to them like a hu- " You know?Like, so I was like, "Oh, I'm not even"It's, I, I'm, I respect structures and processes and legislation, but I, I struggle with authority personally in that way because I don't understand why we can't just speak to people like they're human, and I think when I see- Exactly.legislation like this come in place, and you, and hear you talking about how, yeah, we have to have these ways to go around.It seems weird to me that we even have to put a process in place for that, but I know that some organizations do need that process in place in order to just create that safety, that, along, along with psychological safety.I, I think that's a, that is an important point of note, is we cater, uh, we're catering to a worst case scenario here.Uh, and that is an environment that's not checking in with its staff, that doesn't care how they're feeling when they come to work, that's focused on operations without realizing the connection between operations and personnel, um, to drive success and resilience- Mm-hmm.in, in the business, um, because I, I thinkI have worked with many organizations where you walk in, people are happy to be there.They say hello.The people, uh, management are walking the floor.They know their staff.They personalize gifts and acknowledgments and accolades because they know what is important to the people.Um, and I, I look at the, the adjustments to the psychosocial, uh, safety re- regulations, and I go, that, th- those businesses where everyone is happy to be there, they've, they've got such alignment with their culture, with their standards of ex- and expectations on behavior in, in the workplace and how they deploy, um, and perform their roles, that's run of the mill for them.Mm.Yeah.They don't, like, theyFrom a compliance perspective, they may need to document those risks.They may need to document the controls that they've put in place.But in practice, they're doing it in, without thought- Yeah.uh, as run of the mill.And so I, I think that too is important to note.Where are you on that scale- Yeah.of businesses?Where is your team?Because even with- Mm-hmm.within an organization, different teams will have different subcultures, and they'll have different sub-standards of behavior.Um, like, you know, some, some teams may be very jovial in nature, uh, and that's how they create a safe environment to be able to put forward how they're feeling and, and what they are concerned about, um, or what's important to them in any day of the week.Whereas others are very rigid and- Mm.uh, very sensibleYes.Very dry.Never have I ever been one of those, like, in one of those teams where I'm like, "No, no, we collaborate through laughter."I don't know.I, yeah, I agree.I, um, I don't perform well in those environments either.I'm like, "Ugh, get me out of this box."I think it's, it's such an important point and I, I know we're not going into unpacking it, but I want you to fact check me 'cause I, I'm not positive, but I believe that some of these legislation, like they, these regulations, they are in relation to businesses of a certain size, of employee size or, or staff, like, workforce size.S- soYes and no.So- Okay.Yeah, soSo what I, where I was going with that, and you can please fill in the gaps and correct me, but in relation to smaller businesses who may just have a few team members who may not be under as many of the regulations, if even though still some, they can still start to put these things in place, right, to sort of practice best practice even if they're not at that size where the requirements really, really do come in, in a bigger way.Yes and, and no.So under the Workplace Health and Safety Regulations, directors and anyone in control of a business, you still have responsibilities, you have a duty of care to, to your personnel.Mm-hmm.Um, and so I, I would push back slightly on that, on that and just say I think irrespective of size of the business, you, youThis should be something that you're turning your mind to.It should be something that you're aware of.It, it should be something that you check in with your team on intermittently, and you should be having both a conversation about, but you should also have the documentation to support.Just because something is regulated doesn't a- and is prescribed to fit a business of a certain size, doesn't mean that you push that down the road, uh, until it becomes applicable to you.It matters, um- Yesand that there are many different, um, triggers that may mean that i- that these things in varying levels apply to businesses of different sizes.But I, I think there is also more generally a, a corporate responsibility, a business owner responsibility, as I said.Um, the safety and the psychosocial safety of, of the team, uh, and just self as a business owner, I think is also the other, the other part of that, um, is critical to ensure resilience, business resilience, w- with trust in your relationships with your staff and staff retention, um- Mm-hmm.and then with your customers so that they, that will flow through to how your staff engage with the customers and how the customers engage with you and your suppliers.Uh, it also flows through just simply to how you present as an organization, um, and what you want to be known for in the recruitment process as you're growing, uh, as you're expanding into new markets, if that becomes relevant to you.And, and then the, the legal side is the end state.In, in my, I say in my humble opinion, we shouldn't be striving for something just because it's, it's in a law or it's in a regulation.Um, it should be because we want the best for our business, and the best for our business is to build a trusted environment with our customers, our employees, uh, and in, within all of our relationships, which will then drive success through financial resilience, through knowledge, um, retention and innovation as well.Yeah, that's probably the answer I was looking for actuallyOr- It's exactly that, it's where I was heading-'cause I'm like, yeah, regardless of what the legislation says, my fundamental belief, both personally and pres- professionally, is that- Mm-hmm.we should be practicing best practice as best we can anyway, you know, like bef- even before the legislation kicks in.But as you said, there is still a responsibility.I, and I, and this is my professional opinion also, my, and personal opinion is, I think any business should hold, uh, their own, uh, a standard of responsibility for how they contribute to society anywaySo it's like- Totally.but that looks like, you know, that's, that's gonna be subjective to some degree, but when it comes to, yeah, how they treat their people, how they hold that space, I think- Mm-hmm.that should be a standard regardless.I think that should be a practice regardless.And you've mentioned a couple of times, like the financial b- positive effect of these things can't be understated.And I talk about this again from the wellbeing perspective a lot, where, and I think it relates to this, the, the psychological, psychosocial hazards as well, is, I think this is correct, there have been studies where they found that for every dollar of mental health- Mm-hmm.or wellbeing, um, initiatives brought into the bu- invested into the business, I believe, I'm willing to be wrong about this and fact-check, but I believe that they, you, businesses on average get a $2.30 return for every dollar spent.That's impressive.It's impressive.And , and like, I'm over here being like, "Yeah, let's talk about wellbeing," and, and businesses are, in some cases, like, "That is so important, we're not prioritizing that right now."And, and this is a me thing, but from that perspective of, well, this should be a priority anyway because it's good for, y- you know, it's a responsibility we should hold anyway.But, um, then there's- If you have no staff, you have no business.Yeah.There's also, like, the financial impacts of that.Like, like, you know, the other element of retention.When people are happier, you've said this, but when people are happier, when they feel healthy, when they feel, I wanna say secure, not just safe, but when they feel secure in their workplace, it is such an important element of how they feel about showing up.It reduces absenteeism, it reduces staff turnover, it improves productivity, it reduces fatigue levels.Like, these are all things that, you know, that, there are studies that say all of this.And I think incentive-wise, again, I believe that it should be enough based on how we feel.Like, how we feel should be enough of a reason.Feeling good pers- like, as for business directors, for leaders, for their team, team members, everyone feeling good and flourishing or thriving should be enough of a reason.But if it's not quite enough to get you there to convince you, the financial incentive is also the other one, because it also costs a lot to replace staff.Mm-hmm.Like, I've done the maths before for, for, for clients on, "All right, well, if you lose this staff member in that role, this is what they're not bringing in for this amount."Uh, I was al- like, picked up a pen as if I was gonna start doing it in real time, but no.But like, you know -it's also like, yeah, this is what you lose in, in what they might be, like, in productivity.Uh-But also, this is what, this is 0 on average how long it takes to replace that kind of role.And then you have the onboarding time, which isn't like, which is up to 3, sometimes 6 months depending on the role, but, uh, on average 3 months to get someone really up to speed, even if they're already qualified.Mm-hmm.So it's like that's, you know, the better part of half a year or more- Mm-hmm.of lost revenue.Mm-hmm.Let alone, the mistakes that are made in that time period.Uh-huh.Be honest, we're all human.Uh, and, and there will be things that, uh, take, not only take longer but are done incorrectly- Mm-hmm.um, once you've got, gone through staff transition, and they don't have- Yeah.the background and the context that- Yeah.staff who you've retained for quite a period of time would have.And it's either the double up on the handover period if you're lucky to ha- uh, lucky enough to have a handover period with, with team members- Mm-hmm.it's the double up on salary.Or if you, you're unfortunate enough to not have a handover period with team members, then it's not the double up on salary but it's, exactly, it's the mistakes.It's the, it takes longer to have onboarding 'cause there's less of a training process.And you know, there's all of these layers, and it's just expensive.Mm-hmm.And I know you, in your side of business from that risk management and governance, you come from the same perspective that I come from in my side in the wellbeing, which is, what if we do it proactively?Yes.Absolutely.It's, it, it's better to do it at the front end than to be dealing with the problems at the back end- Mm-hmm.and still have to come in with the same, and align with the same standards anyway.Exactly.'Cause some problems are still gonna happen, and that's because that's just life.Like literally- Mm-hmm.some problems are still gonna happen, but you can reduce the amount of reactive problems you have to react to, or best case- Mm-hmm.respond to, if you're lucky.And you can reduce that just by being proactive.Absolutely.And I, I think the other point with proactivity is it's not set and forget.I'm proactive today, and I've gotten on the front foot, and I've set this into place, and we've implemented and huzzah- Woo-hoo.away we go.Yeah.No, no, no.Proactive eng- engagement, uh, and alignment on particularly these type of issues is an ongoing checkpoint that you need to factor in- Mm-hmm.and consider, uh, throughout business, whether it's through business growth, whether it's through new staff, whether it's just business as usual.Mm-hmm.You still need to, to check in and have a look at is this still working?Is this still accurate?Is this still where we wanna be playing, um, and at the level that we wanna be playing in?Have we got feedback that says something to the contrary isn't working?What does that lookExactly.And- And I think especially at, at time of recording, it is the end of 2025.Like if you're watching it, you can see my Christmas decorations.I'm not- Right.late.The, it's still December when we're recording, but this is coming out in January.And I think this is the perfect time for this conversation, for business owners, for leaders, for directors, forAnd you've mentioned, you mentioned it before we started recording, you might have mentioned it since as well, but everyone has a role.So it's not just the leaders, but it's also, like, everyone, right?Everyone contributes to the culture.It's such an important, it's such a good time, not just an important time, it's such a good time to be thinking about this and to be having conversations about this, to be workshopping this, because we're at the start of a new year.Everyone hopefully feels a little bit more refreshed, but even if you don't, we still have that energy of the year ahead and planning and, "What do we wanna do for the year ahead?Let's go.Woo-hoo!"Like- Set the standards.some, some version of that.Yeah.And it's a great time to start to set the standard, even if you can't do all of it in one fell swoop.I understand that desire.I understand that need, that, that urge to want to have it all done.but what that does sometimes is limits us from actually starting.So it's like even if you start having the conversations, start scheduling those check-ins, and asking your team, and you might refine the questions as you go, or you might get advice from, I don't know, someone like Ebony, to, you know, like, h- like to refine what those questions are, and to start tostart to just have the conversations, schedule in those conversations and go, "All right, this is what we want to do.We're going tothis is going to be a process we'll be figuring out along the way, but we're starting with this.What do you need?"And just get the information started.It starts with them first.Take the time over the Christmas breakMm-hmm.to reflect, and then, and then engage in the new year.Yeah.Yeah, absolutely.And I, I, I don't know.Sometimes I think, like, I know I amI, I have a particular kind of personality that I like to be prepared, and so much of life you can't prepare for, which has been one of my greatest lessons.UhAnd 2.Yeah.So many people r- like, can relate to that, you know, we can't control everything, and I'm not trying to control, but I like to be prepared so then I can, you know, like, take advantage of an opportunity or feel like itlike you said, if this is almost business as usual, it's just a few tweaks or just a few additional things that come into that.So I understand that this is very much my lens of, "Well, why wouldn't we just be prepared?"And some businesses already feel overwhelmed with business as usual potentially anyway, so don't give away all the advice because if they want advisory, I recommend you reach out to Ebony, but what is like generally generically 'cause it is legal related, so, you know, you can't necessarily advise anyway, but what generically can people start with if they are in businesses that just feel already too many plates spinning or too muchon their plate, they're like, "How do we fit this in anyway?"So, I feel like now is a great time to say this is not legal advice.It is just a conversation.Yes.And some recommendations.Um, but I thinkno, I've just had a mental blank and lost the question.What was the question?The question was not legal advice, also for everyone- Not legal advice.who's still listening.Not legal advice.But gene- genericallyOh.generally speaking, if businesses or people within businesses are already feeling overwhelmed, they're like, "Oh, it's just another thing to do.What do I do?How do Iwhere do I start?This is too much."All the plates spinningMm-hmm.all of that generically, generally on legal adviceLegal advice.Not legal advice.Wherewhat's something they could start with?So, from my perspective, I think it's an assessment of, well, what tasks are you actually doing?What priorities do you have?How do those priorities link to the direction that we want to go on as a business this year?Um, is that still within the scope of the role of the individual- Mm-hmm.that's doing the task?Um, what support frameworks do we have in place?Like, uhI mean, both you and I work in, in jobs where when we're on, we're on, and there is a lot on our plate, and it is that constant assessment of, okay, well, for this period of time, I've got a lot of balls in the air.Where do those priorities sit?What things do I have in place around me to support me through that?Um, what are the standards of behavior that I expect to see?Like am I looking at my own self and going, "Is that where I need to be?"Um, am I still aligning with the standards of behavior that I want to portrayMm-hmm.to others?And then, is this for a short period of time?Is it a long period of time?Where am I getting my rest and relaxation in the middle of those things?Um, soI love that one.what we had earlier.And, and so I, I think that it's an ongoing communication loop, and it's an ongoing assessment loop, particularly in, in this instance when it's a small team and you're often wearing multiple hats and you're doing multiple roles.Uh, is the best person for the job doing the role?Um, and what, what elsewhat other options do you have on the table?Is everyone in the team at the same levelMm-hmm.of capacity?Is there someone that's carrying more load and why?Is it personal?Is it work related?Um, what, w- what options do you have available to you?But Ias, as we sort of started on before, I don't think it's set and forget.Uh, I thinkMm-hmm.work inherently you do have peaks of high stress and then troughs of no, no stress, low stress, um, depending on your industry, depending on your role.Um, but making sure you're checking in and supporting each other and I think we're, we're looping back to another point.Everybody has a role in that.Leadership sets the tone from the, the most senior executive in the organization, through senior managers, through management levels, um, and then the staff themselves.Are you keeping an eye out for one another?Mm-hmm.Um, are youy- Ido you have team meetings?Do you have one-on-one meetings?Um, do you have a code of conduct that says, notwithstanding anything else that's going on in the business, this is whatwe value, and this is how we behave towards each other.Are you holding people accountable?Um, I, I think if, if you're doing all of those things and you're constantly alive to those issues, and you're constantly alive, um, to ways that you can improve, you're setting a framework there that then a- allows you to get through, um, through those tougher periods.And then maybe it is time to, at the end of a tough, particularly tough period, to take a step back and do some team bonding, whether that is- Yeah.go and have a coffee offsite.Mm-hmm.Uh, or whether it is, well, Friday afternoon, we're going to head out an hour early- Yeah.because we've had a really long, rough week.Um, or it is just a team meeting where you acknowledge hard work.Um, I, I think it, it doesn't necessarily have to cost money, but it does involve communication and acknowledgment of, uh, the fact that things are in a particularly, um, fast-paced time.They will get better.We do recognize it.We see that everyone's working hard.We appreciate that everyone's working hard.Um, we've got things in place.How can we support you if you need it?Mm-hmm.Um, but we do need to get this thing done to allow us to move to the next level, to keep delivering to our customers or clients.Um, we are still in alignment with our company values, so I think it's very important, uh, whilst we're doing it.But I, I think you- people can have fast-paced environments or high-demand jobs and still feel safe and secure.It's about feeling heard, uh, and being seen, and having both of those things checkpointed along the way.Um, and from a, m- from more of a compliance perspective, it is making sure you've got a risk assessment.Where are we seeing these problems that could potentially arise in, in the organization?What controls do we have in place?What escalation pathways do we have in place?How are we training our people to communicate to them that this is what we're expecting them to do?And then when are we gonna review whether this is working or not?Mm-hmm.And when are we gonna check in and see if there is areas for improvement on that, or potentially pivoting, because that's not really aligning with where the business is going at the moment?Uh, it was when we set it in place, but it's not now.Or this change has happened, and that alters the landscape.Now, we need to factor that in.Um, I, I think th- that is my very practical answer.I love that, and I, I'm about to give an analogy, and I just find it hilarious that I, I constantly give analogies that, of things that we can all relate to, but I've never experienced.So -the analogy of, like, it's a marathon, not a sprint.But it also like a marathon, which I've never run.I don't run.Uh, it's, it's a marathon where I do know though that there are checkpoints along the way.There are hydration points, but there's also check-ins that I know marathon runners have some kind of system in place where they're like, "What do I need now?I need electrolytes.Okay, what do I need now?I"Like, you know, they are checking in along the way and they are learning along the way through their training, but also through the event itself of, "What do I need give myself now in order to keep going?"Rather than presetting check- like, we can have an idea, but rather than presetting checkpoints but not actually checking in along the way."Oh, I have"Like, you know, it's, it's these check-ins along the way.It's setting up whatever processes you can to the best of your knowledge, but allowing the check-ins to adjust them as needed-so you- And documenting.And docu- And documenting.Documenting, says the legal coun- like, documenting, like, of course, yes, documenting, because then it makes it replicable, and it makes it easier for someone else to pick up- Mm-hmm.and run with.Mm-hmm.So- And, and people- Yeah.interpret things in different ways.Mm-hmm.So if you're talking to some, you're writing it down for others.I- it allows or it ensures that you're communicating to a vast range of- of- mmh- or through a vast range of modes to ensure that you're making the message clear to- Yeah.the vast majority of people.You can even draw a diagram, really, if you want to.I'm a- I'm a f- I love a good house.These are- these are our pillars that will get us to that end state.Yup.Yup.Same.Supportive pillars.Like- Yes.weight- weight-bearing beams.Where are they?What are they?Yes.Exactly.And- and, again, that's another analogy I give.I'm like, "I don't do construction.I've never built a house."But we can all understand the concept of that.UmOh, that's so good.I think that'sa good place for maybe you to let people know where they can reach out to you, where they can connect with you.Um, if they do wanna hire your services, or if they wanna see what you're about, um, where is that?I'll include the links, or any links, in the show notes.But if there's a website orsomething, or LinkedIn.Where is that?Absolutely.So, I do have a LinkedIn.Um, and I- I will pla- forward that over to you so that you can circulate that afterwards.And I also have a website, www.ejdadvisory.com.au.Very original.Um- Easy.otherwiseYes.Otherwise, and my email is ebony.dignan@ejdadvisor.com.au.Amazing.Thank you so much forjust talking through this with me and with us.I think, like, it can be such an overwhelming thing, or just another thing.And I think there's so much nuance to it thatin both of our areas and in both of our professions we both care about.In the sense ofmaking this no longer just a box-ticking exercise, butas you've said, like a realfocal point f- for how businesses run a- responsibly, but how leaders and how each person shows up responsibly, and how we all have that role.So, I appreciate your time and your energy and your wisdom w- with us always.Thank you so much.Thank you for having me.