Ep 186 - A regenerative approach to brand, growth & success with Katey Harris

In this deeply honest and necessary conversation, I’m joined by former lawyer turned sustainable fashion founder and brand strategist Katey Harris to unpack what’s really happening beneath the surface for small business owners right now.

We dive into:
- Why small businesses are burning out at record levels
- The real impact of comparison with big corporations
- Why price and convenience are killing local communities
- The myth of “hustle = success”
- How brand, values, and community connection are actually your biggest competitive advantage
- The difference between sustainable vs regenerative business
- Why so many founders are exhausted by content creation and AI-driven marketing
- And how to redefine success on your own terms—without losing your health, relationships, or identity

This episode is for business owners, consultants, creatives, and leaders who are tired of the grind-for-the-sake-of-the-grind and are craving a more human, connected, and sustainable way to build success.

If you’ve ever thought:
“I didn’t start a business to become a content creator,”
“I’m exhausted by the pressure to scale,” or
“There has to be another way to do this…”
This episode will land.  

Connect with Katey here:
www.theotherconsultants.com.au
https://www.instagram.com/classickatey/
https://substack.com/@classickatey

Transcript

Hey, everyone.Welcome to another episode of Get Jasched.I'm really excited to have my friend with me, Katey Harris, for today's conversation.So Katey is the founder of The Other Consultants, a business born out of frustration with business as usual and the persistently short-term focus of marketing and unsustainable, non-regenerative approaches to business.Katie is a former lawyer and sustainable fashion business designeroh, oh, business owner.Sorry.You might be a designer, who knows?I wish.And, and is a big-picture thinker who obsesses over the details.Driven by curiosity and an insatiable desire to learn, her career spans countries and industries, including agency, hospitality, fitness, software as a service, corporate litigation, and retail.So, a wealth of experience, you might say, joining us today.Thank you.Thank you.Thanks for having me.Ooh, I'm excited for this conversation, 'cause it's that time of year, um, at the time of recording, but also at the time that this is gonna come out, that, that people, especially businesses, are feeling a certain way.They're feeling burnt out, they're feeling probably overwhelmed, and we've had many conversations about brand building and mental health and how to navigate that.So I, I guess just to open is, a- h- how do you see that showing up for people who run small businesses in particular, and maybe in relation to the comparison that, that they can sometimes feel in comparison to the, the big companies?Yeah.Good question.It would be, um, hard, I think, for a lot of small businesses, um, and even medium-sized ones.Obviously, we're enteringAs we're recording this, it's Black Friday, which is just a nightmare time of year to run a business, because you can't compete.Um, if you're in, say, looking just at marketing, if you're in the ad space, it's hard to compete, because everybody is justThis is the most expensive time of year.People start coming in, but then, just at another level, you're like, well, maybe as a small business, my prices are set to benefit my community and to make sure I have enough income.But then also as the business owner, you may not have leverage to even handle a sale, but then people expect it.So now you've got all these competing forces of what's happening in ads, what people want, what people are willing to pay, but what you can actually afford to charge people to then maintain your business and maintain your life.Mm-hmm.So I have so much empathy for businesses this time of year.It was hard for me, and I know it's gonna be hard for them.But I think with regards to sort of building or nurturing or maintaining your brand during this period, one of the things people can do is just be honest, which is really scary, 'cause you know, a lot of times you feel the pressure to compete with, you know, Black Friday sales, Christmas sales.But then, at the same time, if you're a family person, you're like, "Oh, my kids are now, well, in school for term 4."It gets a bit hectic.Um, and just starting to think one thing a business owner can do is to be honest about that a bit.You know, say, "Hey, we're not running a sale," or, "Hey, we are gonna cut back our hours 'cause we wanna spend time with our family," but that is a privilege- Mm-hmm.to be able to do that, or at the flip side, saying, haveYou know, "I'm gonna be open on this Saturday for these hours to help you," because, you know, when you support local business, you support your local economy.And having, I think, more human conversations, 'cause that can, from a brand perspective, cut through- Mm-hmm.thing is, you know, you're not gonna get a person-to-person connection with JB Hi-Fi during their Black Friday sales.But if you might be a local business, you might be able to cut through and build some sort of personal connection, saying that, "You know, we're a member of this community, and it's a struggle for us too."So I don't know if thatI probably answered that- Yeah, oh-in about 5 different ways.No.Like, it's, it's intentionally a broad initial question, because there's so many directions and there's so many things floating around, around this idea.And I think the Black Friday sales are such a perfect example, because, uh, as you say, you know, not every business has the leverage to handle a sale, or is, you know, like, a, a small business or even a small-to-mediumA small-medium business is operating at a very different kind of revenue profitability s- ratio than one of the larger actual companies.Um, and this is something that I've thought about a lot this year, uh, partly more in thought leadership as well, in the sense of, you know, um, moments of, and I'll admit it, moments of frustration, for example, where people will sort of platform celebrities saying something that y- Like, it could be an actor and that weyou know, that you like.But, like, an actor saying something that, you know, us actual business owners over here have been saying, but because we don't have the same platform, they're not shared as much and, you know, it's people that you know you see share it.And there's this frustration ofAnd for me, it's internally this, this thought process of this, this evolving frustration of, why don't we see more of that automatic supporting small business in the community as more of that default, rather than defaulting to the large business?Where, like, where there is a comparable, you know, like, where it isn't just, "Well, I have to go here because that's what they have," but that comparable service.Like, w- what do you, what do you think about that, that difference or that mentality that can go intowhy support, like, why people may not automatically yet d- default to supporting small business in their communities.Uh, from my ￡ personal experience, uh, it's often comes down to price and convenience.Mm.And, you know, as I hate this word, but as consumers-you know?Which I think is a horrible word, because it just treats humans down to something that it just takes.Yeah.And we're more, so much more than that.But as consumers, you know, we go to the first thing we recall.So there's a saying that the biggest search engine is the one between your ears.So, if I know that I need to get a air purifier, I might immediately go to Amazon, 'cause Amazon's gonna be the first thing that comes to mind because they've got a multimillion dollar ad budget that spreads itself across so omni-channel.I'll see it from the billboard outside- Mm-hmm.to my Prime subscription, to your Audible, to your KindleLike, you can't escape it.But I won't necessarily think to then go to theI don't know if you can call it, please, actually an electronic store, but the local electronic store, something to buy it- Yeah.because I haven'tIt's not top of mind.So there is a element of we, um, you know, whoever's got the biggest advertising budget in some way is going to win that awareness- Mm.game for people, and then you kind of there.Then also the convenience, and usually 'cause they're big, they've got better economies of scale to offer a cheaper product and then offer free shipping.And often you can see like, "Oh, I don't even have to get off my couch.I can just sit here and do this and"Mm-hmm."blum, ho, we're done."That same thing then just ch- it can go right over to the social space.So, if you notice on Instagram, every third story is an ad, and we are kinda const- every third scroll is an ad.So whoever's got the biggest budget to that is gonna start getting front of mind.Which, on the flip side to that, I think you've seen some awesome things over the last couple years with TikTok, where as a small business, if you make it engaging, you can still r- like, revive or restore your small business- Mm.in that, I think over in that sort of marketing channel, you're seeing a lot more of a push to it, because they're able to make it a compelling story.Like, "Oh, I wanna go support this mom and pop bakery down in the country, because they've got such a vibe on this, on their little content stories."Think for business owners, you know, as con- again, as consumers, we kinda look for the path of least resistance, and our brain- Yeah.is gonna take the shortest route, and if the shortest route is telling us to go just hey, pop on my phone, order this online, we won't necessarily think, "Oh, I'll walk outside," and, you know, walk round to the corner.Like, where we are right now, we're in Brisbane, it's horrendous.Like the idea of having to go walk outside, get in my car and then-possibly drive through a hailstorm- Yeah.which may show up at any minute, it's not as not that fun.But I think, you know, choosing to help that local and support your thing, it has to be almost like a, an active practice of like- Mm.I, no, I'm not going to choose convenience because when I keep choosing the convenience, I lose my high street.I lose my main street, I lose my locals, I lose the thing that actually made, "Hey, I wanted to live in this neighborhood 'cause it had a cute little café, it had a cute little store."Yeah.Like, they all close.And then you hear people at the moment, it's like, "Well, if you don't support it, who's gonna pay its rent?"And then people are like, "Oh, that's expensive, I can't."So it's sort of in this, I think, frustrating, self-perpetuating cycle.However, that's why brand marketing has come in, 'cause you're seeing small businesses kind of surround that by being like, "No, we're gonna make our whole brand around being warm, friendly, approachable-" Mm."neighborhood, community, and build something that people then want to partake in and they'll choose to do."You know, I, for example, I teach fitness as well.So I'll see people choose our studio over a big corporate gym because they're like, "Oh, but the people are nice.I want the community."Oh, yeah.And you see, I think, the small businesses where you're like, "Oh, I'm friends with my local barber shop owner."Like, "I'm friends with the local barista."Mm.Or, you know, uhBut I thinkOkay, and this is probably a bit of a segue, but I think when you're in those small businesses, it's hard to turn off the chatter of, "Oh, I need to compete with Amazon on an online game."It's like, you will never win that.You'll never win the Google Ads game, you'll never win the SEO.Like, you're not competing with them.Like, don't even pretend you're competing with them.Instead, look at it and be like, "What's in my local market and how do I capture all these people here and get them to come to me instead of just going online?"Which they'll still do for half their purchases.Yeah.it's a- That's, that's actually-challenge.Yeah, how do you navigate that?And, like, and, and it'sI'm a service provider, so I'm not a brick and mortar, so I could have, like, a, um, a not, a, a, an inaccurate view of this.But I imagine sometimes brick and mortar is a little easier to capture that local community vibe because in s- in most cases, you're there in some way visible in front of the community in some way.Like, I think about my favorite, my favorite café here, I don't even care.I'll give them a shout-out.It's Blue Bear Coffee House in, uh, in New Farm.And- I know the place.Very good.It is my favorite.I know the owners, and they're delightful.And if they're in, every time I go in, um, one of the owners, she'll come out and she'll give me a hug.So, like, uh, there's that personal connection.And guys, don't expect her to do that with everyone if she doesn't know you.But like- Yeah.but- I'm like, "I made a gesture and you gave me a hug."Yeah.And that's not what I'm saying.But their, their food is consistently amazing.The service is, is consistently lovely, whoever is serving you.So, it f-The experience itself to me feels like a warm hug, and I also have the reliability of, like, the good food, like, the good food that I know that I want.I'm autistic, so I have, like, a food fixation thing where I, you know, like, it has to be exactly, like, what I'm expecting and what I am going out for.I will travel the 30 minutes to, of a drive without traffic that it, that it takes to get there just to, to have breakfast there.You know, like, that's something.I would actually enter into their community.So that's, like, a physical in-person thing.My business and a lot of your business, like, uh, in, in, for- Yeah.the other consultants that work is, is a service.It's a pr- it's a service provided.It's non-location specific.Like, for me, I will travel sometimes for clients depending on what we're doing together.Um, how do you, regardless of, of one or the other, but h- howWith small business owners, if they try to stop competing with the, the big guys, I think I feel like that is smart too, because what I offer, they cannot offer, for example.But how do you still s- kind of cut through?And at this time of year, when they're sort of maybe pulling back and trying to have that balance of life of, "I wanna spend time with my family," or for me, I, I just want some downtime.I, that's, that's the quality of life that I'm looking for, you know.It's like having that downtime.How do they kind ofHow would you advise them to navigate certain ways of still being visible with that balance of, you know, you talk a lot about work-life balance, th- which is their own sort of personal experience of that, but how, how can they navigate that?Yeah.I think I'm just gonna pull back just a second from that one.Mm.I think there is, um, a tendency, and you probably know it yourself, when a founder or somebody starts a business, you go into the business because you love the thing.So, in my case, I love helping small businesses because I've been a small business owner, and I know how fucking hard it gets.And, you know, I've got a friend who does, you know, fire safety maintenance.And he got into it because he really cares about businesses, like, are not safe because of- Mm.some wild things about legislation and making sure that, you know, it's likeBut I was like, "You didn't get into it because you love marketing fire safety businesses.""You got into it 'cause you like maintaining fire safety."Uh-huh.So I think for especially service industries, there is aI wanna say, you know, it's important, I think, for a lot of owners to recognize, and it's a hard truth, of, like, you can't do everything, and you're not expected to be an expert at everything.Like, be an expert at what you can be an expert at.So if you're, say, an expert at Hdoc systems, own it, be an expert on it-but recognize that you don't also then have to become an expert on accounting, bookkeeping, reconciliation, marketing, sales tactics, HR, customer service, the whole ecosystem that kind of- Mm.falls under the business owner.So whenFrom that whole lens, then we go to marketing.Marketing, I think, as a discipline over the last 20 years has gotten so siloed into being like, well, marketing is digital marketing.Mm-hmm.So I work primarily with youth in my business and last few jobs with B2B service industries.And you'll talk to owners, and they'll be like, "Oh, should I do Facebook ads?"I'm like, "Why the fuck would you run a Facebook ad?"Like, you sell railway consulting services.Mm.Like, your target audience is not looking for that ad on Marketplace or waiting for it.It's like, if they're on socials, they're doing it probably for their personal life, not their profession.Yeah.So whenService owners, I think they, you know, you gotta still have these sort of short-term things that you would necessarily, which would be like Google Ads or putting upBut I think for business owners in that service base, a bigger chunk of your marketing should go to longer term brand building awareness.In this sort of Christmas time of year, Black Friday time of year, when that digital space is like slat, it's like weird urgency marketing- Mm-hmm.and it's super competitive.This is the prime time for that sort of longer term brand building things to set in.So, you know, you gave the example of the café, which we all know.I've- Mm-hmm.I live near it, and you see it.But I think if you're, you know, you don't have a brick and mortar, there's still so many ways to get involved, and I think one of the best ones, and I think maybe we talked about it, was, um, you know, sponsorship.You know, I used to live in Hawthorne at the Morningside Panthers stadium.They had all these local businesses that had their signs up, and I know a lot of them didn't have stores.Like, some of the realtors maybe- Mm.but some of them, you know, the HVAC specialists-You know, they often have a warehouse somewhere that's not in, you know, commercial tenancy in Morningside.It's gonna be based somewhere with more affordable rent- Yeah.because brick and mortar is expensive.And walk-by traffic, you pay a absolute premium for walk-by traffic.So when you're in that situation where you're, you know, your warehouse or you're purely online, you can still invest in your community if that, you're servicing that community by looking kind of left of field, I guess, where you're like, you know, "I'm gonna sponsor a sporting event," or, "I'm gonna put a car wrap so that you can always see me.I'm going to maybe talk to a local café," and being like, "Hey, can I put some flyers out?"Mm.You know, there's sort of other ways to show you're engaged or, you know, think a lot of times I've seen it with clients where they do, umOh, there's, like, school giveaways.Um- Oh, yeah.the fundraising nights?Mm-hmm.Where, yeah, you know, you give, like, a voucher to that and it's like, again, you're just trying to help continually build front of mind or, you know, that when I do need a plumber, this is the person I think of.And I think that's really, you see it all the time, magnets or, um-getting relationships built with property agents or something- Oh, yeah.so you kind of always got front of mind.So I think from-you know, a time of year when you're like, "I actually just wanna spend more time with my family.I just slammed with kids' school stuff."Mm."It's really expensive.People are just buying gifts for everybody but not buying things for themselves or something."Or now, you know, is the time of year you hope you don't need air con repair.Yeah.Like, yeah- Yep.That's-you, you hope it's fine.But as a business owner, you can use this time to work on that brand building.Yeah.So that's things like, you know, you've got an email database.Send them, you know, "Top 10 Tricks To Stay Cool Over Summer," "Keep Your Energy Below."Like, whatever's- Mm-hmm.relevant to them.Where you're send- instead of spending my time trying to compete with AI to optimize my SEO or compete with an online sale or an ad space, I'm instead gonna just give value back.And be like- Yeah."You may not need my services right now, but at least you're continuing to receive a sense of value- Mm-hmm.from me or a sense that I'm relevant to your realm."And it'sI think a lot of people don't do, want to do it 'cause it's not like the sexiest form of marketing, and it's also not immediate.Yeah.And, you know, you do, you run an ad campaign, you get an immediate, like, you know, ROI.You run a- You have, yeah, you have analytics that you can view.Yeah.And you don't know.But I think a lot of people with brand building, like, I'm way more passionate about the long-term marketing- Mm.'cause I think it's a lot more sustainable.But you have to be very clear on what your success looks like, that- Yeah.you're measuring against, "I'm gonna sponsor a local footy club and I'm gonna measure over the next 6 months how many cold inquiries I get."Mm.Or, "I'm gonna ask how do people hear about me," but it's much longer term than- Yeah."Oh, I spent 10 grand this month on ads and I got 20 grand in sales."You're like, "But that's"Those days are kind of winding down, but quick.Yeah.And I'm really glad that we're having this conversation b- both personally but also, like, in a professional context too, because I'm kind ofI'm like, do I, do I say this where I know it's gonna be recorded and go public?But, like, I'm kind of sick of, like- You can edit it later.No, I'm gonna leave it in.That's fine 'cause I probably said this anyway.I'm sick of everything being like, "AI, optimize this," and, like, "Attach AI to this solution or this service within a business or this function within a business," that isn't even, like, a tech function.Like, it's like, "Hey, try AI," or it's, you know, wellbeing, which is wild and insane to me.But, you know, like, I'm kind of sick of that being the solution.Yeah.Because it does make you, as a small business, it does make you kind of automatically and inherently still be competing with bigger companies that have the budget that, that we're never going to be out- able to outspend.So the real innovation, to me, in some of these cases isn't, "Use AI to optimize this."It's exactly what you're saying.It's doing things a little bit differently, that in this case, go back to how things were done when we were kids.Like, I, and, and I haveBut like, I don't know if I've actually said this to you recently, but like, in the last couple of months, I've kind of been romanticizing the idea of, ah, remember the '90s?Where- Yeah.there was likeeven in a, even in a city, you know, like, but there wasI remember thinking of, like, aunties and uncles who had their own businesses and shop fronts, and they were within little complexes, and people would just naturally recommend them because they just got to kn- you know?Like, they're like, "Oh, you need, you need picture framing done?Go see Ian and Jane at blah," you know?Or like, "You need electronics?Go see Karen and Ross at Retrovision."You know?Like, they own that one.Like, real-life examples there, but like , you know, it's likeIt was this sort of thing where even the service providers had a, had a storefront and had recommendations just from the relationships around them, and, andI mean, there's a lot about that that, like, my autistic brain hates the idea of like, I don't wanna sit there for 8 hours every day, you know?But- It's boring.It's boring, and it's also like- Exactly.I wanna be in my own space a lot of the time.But there is, like, this romanticism that I've been pondering where I'm like, "Ah, remember what that used to be like?"Rather than everything online.And it's the explicit thought that I've had where I'm like, oh, I started a business because I wanna do this wellbeing work and this mindfulness work and this coaching and this training and this facilitating that I love doing.I didn't start a business to become a content creator.And I know that that is a part of it for me, and I'm, I'm saying that on a podcast that I'm recording in several different modes right now.And that's fine because the podcast was actually like an outlet for me to have conversations with people.That's why it started in 2020.I'm like, "Let's have conversations."And that serves something for me as well as providing that sort of value for people.But yeah, it has been this thought, and I know I'm not alone in this thought lately.I'll, I'll see it online, I'll see it on threads where people are a lot more open, I think, with their actual inner thoughts, not just trying to sell, where they're like, "Yeah, I'm sick of being a content creator when I just wanna be doing the work I love doing."Yeah.You know, it's interesting you said that 'cause I just read this morning that the word of the year from the dictionary is AI swap.Yeah, I saw that too.Because it's like-we're exhausted.And I think you're not alone in this.I thinkYou know, I said to you recently, I deleted all my social media, but my, half my algorithm had kind of gone down that rabbit hole of like, "I just wanna go into the woods- Mm.and buy myself a house."Like, people are so fatigued.I think since COVID, it's been this, like, mounting thing of, like, realizing the pros and cons of globalization, the pr- pros and cons of this interconnected economy that we've built over the last 150 years.Yeah.And just this sort of rapid expansion of everything and this sort of overwhelming, that you talk to people and you're like, you know, realistically most people don't wanna work 40 hours a week or more than that, but if you go online, you're like, "Oh, well, you're a failure because you don't have a Mercedes, you don't have a 4bedroom house.""You don't have these things, you don't have a vaca-" Like, you kind of build up this thing of like, "Oh, you don't have the latest handbag."And then it's, again, this cycle of you're like, "Oh, well, in order to keep up with this lifestyle that I'm being sold to over and over online and on entertainment, I have to do all these things."But as we've probably seen, you know, the harder you work, you don't necessarily earn more.Mm-hmm.Especially in Australia at the moment.Oh, yeah.Like if- Not keeping up, but- If, if, if that were true, then a lot of blue-collar workers would be the wealthiest people in our communities.And they're just not.Like, you know, a lot of people aren't, despite how much, how hard they work.Nurses.Yeah.Nurses would be the wealthiest and- They should be.They should be.And teachers should be the wealthiest.But they're justThey're not.Like-So it doesn'tIt's this story we've been told also ofSorry, I feel really passionate about this one 'cause yeah, like, it's this story we've been told of, "You just gotta work hard and then you'll get the things that you want.You'll be able to buy a house, you'll be able to, you know, like, have all the things."And it's just not, it's just not the reality.Yeah.And the thing I keep coming back to, and I tell clients this, I'm like, 'cause I, you know, consult with them on, "How do you build a brand foundation?""How do you do ongoing marketing support?"But then I'm like also, "What does sustainability look like to you as an owner?"Yeah.Like, what is your, realistically, business-owner goal?Is it to be the next Bunnings or is it to be like, "Actually, I just wanna build a comfortable lifestyle that I can, like, enjoy life with my family and then maybe sell it onwards"?Be like, "Great."So then we're trying to build a system that is not centered on you, that you can sell it- Mm.and that has, like, scalable processes in it, that you can step back.But having that realization of like, you know, is your end goal to be like, "I want a yacht."Or, "Actually, I just want a comfortable little lifestyle here that maybe I can take one trip a year with my family."Yeah.And, but it's hard when there's so much other noise telling you that you should be doing all these other things.Yeah.And that, you know, something we talked about where like in the business space, there is such an obsession with growth.Like, as a skill culture globally, like we worship entrepreneurs.Like, I'm gonna give a big old air quotes on this one 'cause I'm like, I'm sorry, Elon Musk, you had a lot of things handed to you.I'm American.Sorry.Mm-hmm.A lot of Americans just say Trump's the greatest businessman.I'm like- No.again, you've had a lot of things handed to you, notwithstanding a few thousand years of a patriarchal systems *******.Yep.Episode for another day.But, you know, we pray at that altar of like- Mm.Oh, we worship success.Like, oh my god, you're a multimillionaire.You've done so well.You're like, but at what cost?Mm-hmm.How many of those people, like, you know, on their deathbed are like, "Where's my family?"Mm.No one really cares.Like, cool, I left a bunch of houses, and my kids can fight over it.Which doesn't happen for everybody, I'm sure there's some very happy stories in this.But I think unlearning that and deprogramming of, like, what does, as a business, as a business owner, what does true success look like to you if you turn off all that noise?Mm.And I think it's a very hard thing for people to kind ofAnd, like, Christmas, like, is a good time to realize it, 'cause you're like, everyone's around.Mm.And it is a time where you're like, you know, here it's summer break, everybody wants to hang out.So, but how do you spend time with your family and your friends and your community and build that if you're like, "Oh, no, I need to go work 80 hours a week because I have to-" Yeah.hit this imaginary goal that this sort of greater pressure is telling me?"Mm-hmm.And I guess, to not, to sort of, to say that notwithstanding, if you do have, you know, existing debts, existing mortgages and everything, like, it is a luxury to stepSo also understanding that for some people, you do have to do all that.Because whether- Yeah.you have to send money back home if you're an immigrant, or if you are in a mortgage and you need to pay for it, or if you're like, "I've got medical fees, school fees," likeOr you're just trying to get by, like- Or you're just trying to get by, like yeah- Yeah.there is whole things.But I do think no matter what the pressures are, there's ways for you to sort of build a sense of sustainability into it.Sustainability not just in a, we use recycled plastics, but in a how do I maintain a sustainable level of growth without getting a divorce- Mm-hmm.without alienating my kids, without losing all my friends, without losing my own mental health, without getting sick.Like- Yeah.and recognizing that it's not, you know, 99% of the time, that's not an overnight thing.That is, you know, you're a marathon, not a sprint.Mm-hmm.But we live in a society that worships sprints andYeah.I'm not a sprinter either.No.I was like, "I hate running."I'm like a steady hike, let's go.Yeah.Well, steady because- Like, good, moderate pace, but like-you'll get injured.you know.Um, th- that, that makes me think of, I went to the, uh, there was a world congress in positive psychology here in Brisbane in July that I went to.Um, and one of the speakers, and I wouldn't be able to tell you off the top of my head who it was, because it's in a notebook behind me buried in that pile of books.But they spoke about how it shouldn't even just be sustainable approaches to well-being.And if we're talking about well-being, I think that also leads to how we, how we run our, and build our businesses and how we sort of set goals for our businesses too.Yes.And he was saying, it's not just a sustainable pr- approach, it's a what's the regenerative approach?Because we need to consider that what we expect to receive, w- in this case well-being, from, we also need to give back into to regenerate.So, like, the very visible, visceral example is, like, you know, trees.You know, the obvious example is trees.Like, what we, what we hope to receive energy from in terms of being out in nature or being on, like, on the beach and enjoying the beach and the ocean, we need to sort of give back to.So that's a very, like, earth-centric version of that, which is s- so important.But I think it also extends to how we treat our businesses and what we want to get out of it, we also have to regenerate into.And- Yeah.sometimes the focus is so much on, again, my personal perspective, on optimize with AI and do all these things and, and put on a pedestal all of these businessmen, mostly, who have been given everything, that aren't great and, like, you know, they're good exploiters.They're not great businesspeople.They're just good at exploiting people.Put them on a pedestal and then aim to work for a seat at that table that you'll never actually reach.Yeah.Rather than something that is regenerative, that is meaningful, that is fulfilling personally, but also regenerative, as we've said, into maybe our own communities- Yeah.or maybe what our version of community is, whether that is in an online context and, you know, uh, it could be re- for me, uh, in a lot of cases, it's regenerating my ability to go travel, to visit the communities that I've had the privilege to connect with because of COVID.But it's hard to sort of, you know, like, do that without having that.So it's, it's such a, it's such a perspective, I think, and it's an important one to sort of bring in of, how can we make it regenerative in that way?100%.Mm-hmm.And I think this, um, I guess, ties in really well with brand, because I know, as you mentioned, I'm in the brand space and brand strategy where it's helping businesses position.Mm-hmm.Like right at the beginning, whether you're starting your scale and like, however youAnd you can think of brand as like whatever customers think of when they think of you.Like, and if you don't define it for them, they'll define it for you.Mm-hmm.And something a friend and I were laughing about recently was you know, there's this funny video on Instagram of a comedian talking about brand purpose.And brand purpose is getting, like, lots of commentary on it, because I personally genuinely feel being in the, you know, coming from a sustainability background, every brand should have a purpose, 'cause it's what guides you.Mm-hmm.Whether your purpose is saving the planet or not is a whole different thing.And that's where it's getting a lot of shit, 'cause you know, I think it was Unilever with like, "Our mayonnaise is here to bring happiness and joy to everyone."And you're like, "You're a mayonnaise brand."Like-that's a little too lofty.Like, let's bring it down a bit.Yeah, like it's a little too far-fetched actually- Yeah.to make it like relevant and realistic to what you're selling or offering- Exactly.or providing.Yeah.And then because we live in a world with like black and white, no gray, it's all of a sudden been like, "Oh, the brand purpose is obsolete, you don't need it."And you're like, no."Mm-hmm."Like you still need it."And I think especially as a small business owner, you're like, you have so many things happening and distracting you that it's like, let's clarify the 2, one thing to focus on.Tied into that, 9 times outta 10, you see a purpose or mission that's like, "We care about our people."Like, "Our purpose is to help our people."And as far as I'm concerned, like that's just words on a piece of paper.Mm-hmm.Unless you look at it from that regenerative lens and you're like, well, what does that actually mean?Like if our purpose is to provide this superior technology that makes, you know, easier to do these things, that's a really bad example of a purpose statement.And you know, the way we do it is by supporting and caring for people, then I'm like, well you better live that out.So- Yeah.in a regenerative sense you say like, "Okay, we're gonna look at our full systems.""This is not gonna just be an exercise in corporate comms and a marketing slogan, and a thing we pop on, you know, underneath our logo as a tagline."It's like, no, we're gonna have robust parental leave for moms and dads.We're gonna have, you know, that right to turn off is gonna be paid attention to.It is capped at 38 hours.It's sort of all these wider systems that encourage your team to flourish.Mm-hmm.And I'm not an HR person, not a change management person, but I'm like, I have had staff before and I look at, I'm friends with them, you know, 15 years later some of the closest people I know.People who worked for me 'cause I'm like, "Well, you're not here to just make me money.You're here to wanna help me grow my business, but I also wanna help you grow if you wanna grow your career in this case of fashion," then I'm like, "How do I help you?"Because we're in this, you know, what's that word?Mutually beneficial ecosystem- Mm-hmm.of we're working together- Yeah.to regenerate and build something, but I can't just take from you.Like I've gotta give you something back.Yeah.And then you're gonna also give to me and take from me.Mm-hmm.And that's fine 'cause we're all working now towards, in this sort of system, towards this bigger goal that is clearly defined and it's guiding everything we do- Mm-hmm.rather than just being, this is what we say in our ad campaigns.Yeah, it's- This is truly felt, and believed, and lived by.And I think it's for humans too, like that's what ikigai and that whole thing of your individual purpose- Mm-hmm.can be translated to a business setting, but you gotta, you gotta work to it.Yeah, you've gotta work for it and it is this like, it's a reciprocal relationship and I think that's where, and I, and I see it on the leadership side as well, like where, you know, sometimes people will be like, "Well, why should I," like in terms of hire this service for my team, like, "Why should I?"And it's like well, 'cause, 'cause their perspective is, well they're hired to do a job, so they're paid to do a job.So that's the re- that's the reciprocity.And it's, to me, it's exactly as you're saying, it's because we're in relationship with each other when we are in like, you know, you, they may get money for the job they do, but you're also in relationship to each other.So I feel like there is almost a responsibility on both sides, but I feel like there's a responsibility to show up to that relationship.Not just- I think-you know, that 'cause then there's not actually anything being built or regenerated.I had a friend once say to me, she was like, "You know, a job is like you're exchanging time money."Yeah.And I'm like, "Agree, but also like sad about it a bit."'Cause I'm like, we spend more time at work than we do with our family- Mm-hmm.and our f- especially after we finish school.Like you will spend- Yeah.way more time with your coworkers.But the wider system of business, we can probably discourse on capitalism now, treats it as an exchange where you're like- Mm-hmm.I'm exchanging time for good.Clock in, I'll pay you for it.Like you clock in, you do this thing per the contract, that's it.You're like, but small business can do better.Yeah.And I think when you're in the cog of like a big, let's use multinational, you know, you're stuck with the system and that system is probably not gonna shift any mind.It can be a hard shift.Mm-hmm.And you're seeing it with like kind of these ESG policies coming in and the DEI initiatives, like they're pulling back and forth on those.Yeah.That from a small business perspective, you have that opportunity to have this massive point of difference if you're like, you know, say you are that local service industry that's got a warehouse somewhere.You're like, well you can, you know, look for your apprentices at your local school- Yeah.like especially here, they do TAFE, they do that.But you know, you don't have to go far afield.You can start to try to-build back and give back, because- Mm-hmm.I think we really discount, in an era of social media, like we've really discounted the power of just like peer-to-peer, person-to-person.Yeah.Like, you know, we got so used to being sold to by influencers.And then, we now have like the more authentic influencers and stuff, but still a lot of production teams.But like, well actually, that person you talk to, like you know they're real.I mean, they're not gonna lie to you.But you know it also wasn't just- Yeah.AI generated, and you know they're maybe not necessarily getting wrong brand deal behind it.But- Mm-hmm.you know, there's a power in sort of looking at someone in the eye and having a conversation, but we're losing that.And you see people sort of losing that ability to do that, but you're like, "But that's"Well, humans are social creatures, like- Mm-hmm.we're made for this.We're made to- Yeah.It's- And it's, yeah-it's not meant to be transactional.It's- Yeah.To me, it's not fulfilling.That's why the whole, you know, like paid by the hour approach doesn't motivate me.Like, it's, it's like it's not how I work, for starters, personally.Like, it's like, oh, no, I work, not even literally like the structure of my work, mentally it's not how I work.It's like, oh, I, I, I work based on project.My brain works on project, not per hour.Yeah.Like- And, and like, I'm giving you a thing at the end, who cares if it takes me one hour or 20?Like, I'm- Yeah, it's-commanding my time, like- M- Hence why I went into business, right?Like, so, you know, likeBut that's a personal preference, but yeah, it's, it's so transactional, it's so empty, and it, and itWe wonder where we, not all of us, I guess, but we wonder where like community went and, and how do we do it?I think these conversations and these reminders that you're sharing are, are ways that we can still contribute- Yeah.to community, even if, you know, we're a service provider, or even if we're on, an online service provider, in many cases.Yeah.You know, it's, there's still ways we can contribute.Like, for me, it's, it would be, umLike, I, I have this desire to, you mentioned sports sponsorship, like my, my niece plays representative basketball, and it's like, oh, I'd wanna sponsor her team, because that speaks to my value.Like, so does my nephew play, but like it also speaks to my values in supporting girls in sport.You know, like, so it's like, oh, I wanna support girls in sport, because they are underfunded, so that's, that, there's a value there that I can, I can follow through and live out, but also then it, it supports, uh, in this case, a family member.You know, like it supports a community that I, that I value, because she's in that, or, or my nephew might be in that, or you know, it'sit's, it's these ways of connecting still that give it all a point.Like, uh, uh- Yeah.I always say like, "My"This won't be the title of my first book, because plans changed, but I always say like, like, "The title of my book is gonna be What's The Fucking Point?"And I was like-"Mm-hmm, yeah."It's, it's this, it's something.That's the great thing about sports.Like, I remember playing softball in the US- Mm-hmm.and my friend's dad sponsored our team for a few years.Oh.He developed, I think, one of the most award-winning pre-planned communities, like that situation.Yeah.But I'm like, "What a"Now I look back, and I'm like, "What a smart marketing endeavor."For a number of years, you took like a group of girls, sponsored their team, it's on the back of the uniform.Yeah.Like, they all have parents.Yeah.They've all got grandparents that are looking either to downsize or move everything, and you're constantly getting in front of them and saying, "Not only we do"You know, "We're not just this developer that's gonna do these things."Mm-hmm."Like, we actually do care about what our kids are doing, what their friends are doing, what the sort of girls in sports are doing."That's awesome.Even if you don't actually care about it, you're now giving this perception of, "Hey- Yeah.we are more than just this thing.We are actually invested in this.We're investing in Jiasom."Mm-hmm.Like, "We are not just here to just build something and take money from you.Like, we're actually here to give back to our community."And I think it's powerful, but it's just discount, I think it's been discounted over the last few years.Yeah.And post-COVID, I think that's one of those common things you hear is like, "I want community, I want connection."On community, I'm like, but community is so uncomfortable.Mm-hmm.Like, to show up for community often is, can be very uncomfortable.And we, as people, I think don't like being uncomfortable anymore.Uh, yeah, and I wonder if thatI'm, I'm laughing because I resonate with both sides.Like, I actively teach and tr- and try to actively practice, like, you learn to be uncomfortable in the discomfort.Like, that is a part of our work.But also, there is a big part of me that's like, ma- and maybe it's just after, you know, the year 2025, where I'm like, "I'd like a little comfort."Yeah, you're likeEh, you know?So, like, I won- I wonder if it's like, you know, whether it's a COVID hangover or just because there are, there are bigger things in the world that have also just been persistently rough.And, and peoples' win- almost windows of tolerance are, are just not getting the chance to, to rebuild or to, you know- Maybe.reopen again.'Cause there's just this onslaught one, in one form or, or another, right?Yeah.And, and people are, like, craving comfort, but it's also we don't get to get that without going through sometimes uncomfortable things, like building community.Like, it's like- Yeah.there's, there's ways that create that comfort that mean a certain kind of uncomfortable thing that isn't necessarily the onslaught that we've been dealing with that is beyond our power.Yeah, and I'd say since 2020, it's just felt like, especially if you're online, it has felt- Mm-hmm.like crisis after, like permanent crisis mode.Like I said to you before this, I, when I got off social media, 'cause I was like, "I'm just getting too stressed."Mm-hmm."I mentally cannot handle constantly being told that we've passed 1.5, the Earth is dead, we're, we've really fucked the planet, and my home country's gonna go to war.""Ugh, I just can't."Yeah.And my adopted country is just in a cost of living, ongoing cost of living crisis.Yeah, and climate crisis.Yeah, and I found-by kind of turning off that noise, it was like, oh, I don't have to just consistently worry about all these oncoming crisises- Mm-hmm.that may happen everywhere around me.And instead, I can focus on what's in front of me and the people around me and being like, "Okay, how do I support myself, my family, my friends?"And start to build this bigger thing of, you know, in the case of my business, it may take me 5 years to be more successful, but I'm happy with that slow growth- Mm.because it's allowing me to actually focus locally and say, you know, the last 2 years, my business has been fine because I've got a big network, but it's not here.Right.It's like all over Australia.I'm like, "Okay, how do I do this?"And I'm like, it's uncomfortable.It's like, oh, I've gotta go not welcome.I've gotta go back in some cases, like, I've gotta get in the car and drive across the Story Bridge, which anyone in Brisbane will know can be painful, to go support somebody that's over- Mm.on the other side of the river.But I'm like, "You're my business of choice for this and I'm gonna go- Mm.make myself that slightly uncomfortable of getting out of my com- my house to go hang out."Yeah.Or I'm gonna go into a coworking space to try to network or I'm gonna go- Mm-hmm.to networking events.Yeah.And try to have these conversations that don't just exist in the digital space, instead exist- Yeah.in real life, but you know, as you know, sometimes it's a bit like eh- Well-not that fun to talk to people always and- No, and it's all of those reasons.Like you mentioned you know, like in Brisbane at the moment, it's, it's swampy as hell and, like, all day, and then there's a hailstorm in the afternoon.And it's usually afternoon, evening.So like- Yeah.in summer, I tend to not make as many plans after 2:00.Like the, I've just, I have def- I grew up here, so I defaulted to that where it's like, yeah, you just don't do it, because- Yeah.But, like, you still move through discomfort.Like I said, like, I'll drive half an hour.It's still the si- same side of the river for me, but I'll drive half an hour to my favorite cafe, because it's just that good.And I will do that happily, and I will navigate, you know, trying to find a park there, because it's where it's in, like it's in a city, so it's sometimes hard to find a park, but I will always find a park, and I will do it because it's worth it to me, because it feels good, but I also feel like I'm a part of the world.And like you said, like, you know, we'll go to, like, a coworking space, which is where we met, or, uh, go to networking events related to, for me, it's related to that coworking space because that feels, there's an element of comfort there because there's familiarity, but also, you know?But that's a, that's a train ride and then a walk in that same swampy heat.Like you know?And it's like- So gross.It's so gross.But I will still plan and do it intentionally because it feels like it, it helps me step away from being just behind, like in my 0 in my home office that I adore.Like, I love my space.I love creating the energy of a space.But also, it helps me step away from just trying to speak at the world from exactly this spot through my computer and actually be in the world, even if I'm doing similar work, I'm actually, I'm existing in the world and in the community that I want to exist in.That is the whole point of me trying to, you know, build a business that gives me an element of success that allows me to do that, you know?It's like, well, I can, I can do that now.I can, I can start doing that now.And I think that's the key thing is you sort of define, like, what success looks like for you.Mm-hmm.And then all of your business structures and your marketing and everything is based around, like, how do I build this version of success?Yeah.Recognizing, like, and I think that's one of the hardest things for people to accept is that, like, there's always a trade-off.Mm-hmm.Like time is the most valuable commodity, in my opinion.So I'm like- Yeah.so the, you know, you could probably work double time and probably, you know, hustle even harder, earn more money, get the- Mm-hmm.car and everything you want, but you're like, "But what gave?"Mm-hmm.And is it worth that?And I think for business owners, that is just- that co- it comes back to purpose, like individually and your business to come back to, like, when it- there's this trade-off.Like, is it worth it?Mm.Is itYou know.What does that version of success as you and as a business and that, you know?It's a luxury to kinda have some time off, but how does it work?Like- Yeah.sort of shifting a bit left on this one.Yeah.You know, my 0 my previous business was brick and mortar, and it was 7 days a week.And it was really hard, but it was like, okay, for me as a person, the super big value to me is minimizing cost, personally.It's like, okay, I wannaSo I'm gonna try toI will make myself more tired by taking the extra time to go drive further away to do bulk grocery shopping- Mm.or to take the extra time to cook, when I'm like, "I'd actually rather just lie on the couch and watch a Korean drama than take an app."But, you know, I've had to put myself in that position of like, I am so burnt out and tired- Yeah.because I work 7 days a week, but also it is so important to me to do this that I'm gonna make myself uncomfortable and go to these things and support- Mm-hmm.these local businesses, 'cause I'm gonna be devastated, you know?If they're not there anymore.Anybody from Perth that listens to this, like, if Kukula's closes, we'll all just be heartbroken.Or Re:Store closes.But you're like, so you've gotta put yourself first.So I think as a business owner, remember that, like, everybody's gotta be a bit uncomfortable.Yeah.And everybody's gonna have to make that equation.And price may not be the thing that always brings them in, but- Mm.you know, we get stuck on that.And I remember, it's like, well, they might come to you because you make them feel safe.You make them feel like you're a veg- measure, you know, valuable part of the community.They know you're always gonna deliver.Yeah.They know you'll always be competitive.Not even that, I suppose.But they're like, you know- Yeah.they know the people behind the brand.Mm.Yeah, it'sit's reallyI had this thought yesterday, actually.It was a memory of, like, a post I put up years ago, a couple of years ago, and it was the same thought really.Um, and it's like, whatever decision you make, you're always saying no to something else.Yeah.So it's kind of like accepting that and, like, because that is just the nature of making decisions.For example, it's, it's the same as if I choose to get extra sleep in the morning because I need it, it means I'm saying no toI don't know, like, you wouldn't do this.Some people do.You wouldn't do this here in Australi- in Queensland in summer 'cause sunrises at like 4:00 AM.No.But, you know, it's like, it means I'm missing out on a beautiful experience of sunrise.But I'm getting sleep that I- that, that nourishes me.Or the reverse of that.So it's almostAnd I say, I say that example because it's, it's benign, because it's really about what serves you right now.And, and we're gonna go through seasons of that.And like you said, like, you made a choice where you felt tired and fatigued and exhausted, but in that season, there were things that served your values more that felt like it was worth the trade-off.Mm-hmm.You know?Awesome.And, and for me, like, I thinkYeah, I think, like, this year in particular, I've been doing my master's and I've been running a business and I've been writing a book and, you know, just navigating life in general, and there's been an element of, okay, I need to just let myself be obsessed with my work because that feels good.And it's gonna feel really good when I complete, you know, the master's, when my book is published and, and when I've built the business to be more sustainable and regenerative for me so then I can contribute more.So it's like, that has sort of informed how I've been making decisions, especially this latter half of the year, like this second half of the year, where I'm like, "Oh, I'm just gonna be obsessed."And that means maybe working, likenot necessarily working more, butWell, yes , but, but maybe, like, not trying to extend myself in every area.Yeah.Even though community and connection is really important to me, I'm just going to be real- have to be really specific.And that is just where it is because I need toBecause I'm working more, I need to take care of my energy where I can.Yeah.So it's like, that's the season I'm in, but it's gonna come around where it's like, oh, I'm gonna have more of a social season.Oh, I'm gonna doYou know, likeYeah, and like- It-in small business, we all know it's either like feast or famine.Mm.Like, you know those periods where you're like, I had it I think earlier this year, it was like 4 projects, like- Yeah.just kept overlapping, and I was like- Yeah.So it was 3 or 4 months where it was like there was no break.Yeah.And I was like, "Well, I know that this feast will end and we'll come to a famine period."Yeah.But it'll be really, really quiet for a while.Mm.And then I'll just do other things during that quiet period, or just focus on, you know, in my case I've got retainers, so those are the ones, you know, projects and- Yeah.And one of the h- I think that's one of the probably mental health challenges of being a business owner, if you're like, it's not consistent.Like you are constantly riding a wave.Mm.And in addition to the business wave, I've gotten, you know, if you're of a certain age, it's like, you're gonna have school-aged kids maybe and you're gonna have aging parents maybe.Mm-hmm.So you're gonna have a life wave.Yeah.And navigating that, like, I have so much empathy for business owners.I'm like, it's so hard, but if you try to then tune out all that other stuff and just be like, "Nope, I'm just gonna focus on this thing," like- Mm.it'll come crashing at that door anyways.Yeah.Like, so you need to be savvy where, but yeah, I said timing, something gives, and if you give absolutely 100% everything to your business, what's looking outThe other stuff's still there.Exactly.It didn't go away.Yeah.But how do you portion that?And I think, leading it back to marketingMm.my, the biggest thing I tell my clients, I'm like, "You can't do everything at once.Like you've gotta pick, because not only is your financial budget probably limited, but your emotional budget is limited."So if you know that as a business owner in your case, you're like, "I need to heavily focus on pipeline development and sales, not necessarily- Mm.long-term brand building," all I can do for that is the podcast.That's all the im-, right?Yeah.Time.Mm-hmm.And time is money situation that I have to give to that, and that's okay.You don't have time to do that, write, Substack- Yeah.make videos, TikTok.It's like, no, something has to give, and- Mm.it's hard when your brain, you're competing with like, you know, some wellness guru that has a production team behind them- Wow.and can do everything, and someone goes for everything- And they're like, "You gotta be on this and this and this and this."And it's like, I just can't do everything.Yeah.And I found it especially when I talk to clients where I'm like, "You know, you, you can't.Like you can't.You do not have the budget to do everything, so let's just do one thing right."And then once that's working, like I have one client in e-comm, and I'm like, "Let's just, first off, nail your brand first.Let's get some consistency in organic, 'cause that's free.Then let's look at the email, 'cause we own that.Then let's look at paying for ads.Like let's- Yeah.just get- Yep.one thing at a time, versus when you've spread yourself thin, everything is kind of shit.Mm.Or like myI probably shouldn't be so proud of this, but like my most, I think proudest moment of a project was doing a brand strategy for a client and positioning, and the process of doing that uncovered all these operational challenges, and they're like, "Well, we're actually not gonna use you on a retainer 'cause we need to fix this."I'm like, "Fucking great.Like, don't put lipstick on a pig."LikeYeah."Fix your systems, because that's what the brand, this positioning experience has shown."Yeah.That, you know, you've got weaknesses operationally, so put the money there.Mm.See me in a year.And I was so happy about that, and I was like, "Well, I just got no work outta that," butBut it's this, it's- But hey- And I think- But it's 0 you know, honest, you know, like if you wanna continually serve your community as the best version of your business- Yeah.and you know you're gonna spend a limited budget on radio ads, which for them makes sense, do that.Get your thing focused so then people want to refer you, people want to support you because they know- Mm.you'll deliver, not just 'cause they, you'll say you'll deliver, you actually do.And that's notThat is technically traditional marketing, but marketing now is like, "We like those book ads," and you're like, "It's not."Yeah.Marketing is how do you grow, how do you grow your business?Yeah.Your marketing strategy is your business strategy.Yeah.The way I see it, and it's just not, there's tech- so far apart, and you're like, but it, it is, like it's, for you, is a growth mechanism.Mm.Ultimately, long term, like you want people to know about you, and like- Yeah.I'm on this because 'cause we're friends and for a similar reason.Yeah.And I'll sit and yap for hours about marketing to people for free, because I'm like, you know, "When you do need it, I hope you think of me."Yeah.And that's exactly it.Like, to your point, you, you mentioned it, like I have the podcast because I can't do everything.I love writing, but I'm already writing something else.Yeah.You know, so I'm like, I can't, I can't do all of that and do that well and do that well and do this, and the podcast is a way for me to connect with people and have conversations that I find interesting, which is regenerative for my energy, but also it serves, it helps me repurpose content.And that's- Mm-hmm.And that's like, cool.That means that I have, you know, I'm ticking certain boxes where I have the social posts going out, because they're mostly, mostly clips from the podcast.But they're valuable there, and then it's also, there's the value-add of, you know, I- I want business owners, small business owners, to listen to this when it comes out, because it's gonna come out before Christmas, before the holidays, and it's such an important time to really consider that, especially in setting up strategy for the new year and ahead.So it's like, oh, I want people to get value out of this, and I've had people come to me, like, or clients come back and say, "Oh, oh, it's because I saw that keep popping up that I kept thinking of you."And it's like, "Great."Hmm.Like, reciprocal.Awesome.Because I want them to get the value, so I want it to be valuable, but also it's- it's my little way as a small business owner to just try and build that- that-brand awareness, if you will, and be like, "Yep, remember this?This is what I talk about.Remember me?This is what I talk about," without having to create so many different types of content all at once.Yeah.Mm.I think brand awareness is just, it's so discounted, like with so much focus on, uh, I hate the language of the funnel, 'cause I think the funnel's broken personally now.Yeah.Yeah.How many times have you just gotten an offer, something you clicked and bought?Like, you had no awareness prior to that.You're just like, "Oh, that's cute."And that's definitely more retail than like, you knowNot many people impulse buyI don't know why I keep coming back to HVAC, probably 'cause I'm hot.But, you know.Yeah.I think on air, there's so many things.Mm.You can just continually get in someone's awareness, especially if it's your services, 'cause like 99% of the time they don't need you when they see the thing or hear about you.Oh, yeah.You just need to keep aware in their mindset for when they do need you in 6 months.Mm.And I, I find for me, I have anywhere from 6 to 12 month lead times to get some clients in, and usually there's a fair bit of, because I have, I don't mind, like a lot of free knowledge given out.Mm.And, you know, if I were to objectively look at myself, I could like, "Oh, I could use that knowledge and this thought leadership and write more pieces for my Substack, share on my LinkedIn, probably just get on TikTok and talk about it, 'cause that algorithm will connect me to people."But then I'm like, "Well, I personally don't want to, because that's not how I wanna spend my limited free time."Yeah.Yep.Like, I would rather just go have those conversations, like with you we've had privately, with other people, with previous clients where I'm like, "Let's just talk to each other like normal humans."And I'm like, the marketing industry on LinkedIn is like, oh, I just go and dip into it.Yeah.And then I see, you know, we've talked about this before, like, you know, personal versus professional brands, like I could go promote, spend time creating content from a professional brand and become pseudo content creator.But the things that I like in my personal brand side, I'd actually rather talk about those more.Mm.Because, it's not that I like them more, but I enjoy talking about them more.Yeah.Or, in the case of wellness and fitness, I'm like, the algorithm's gonna like that content more.Yeah.But it's like, "Oh, how do you"But I'm like, "Okay, well I'm only gonna pick one because it's more important to me to have time, you know, spend, be able to spend time with my husband and spend time talking to my mom every day, and like being there for my stepkids and making sure my cat doesn't eat my fish at this point."That's what's happening in the background.He's like trying to climb up.Oh, no.It's justAnd I think this is like, you know, coming into summer, Christmas is such an important one to remember, likeMm.Anecdotally, last year I went back to the US for Christmas, and I'd happily kind of forgotten about how time off works there.Mm.Because like, my brother's a lawyer, you know, he got, he could pretty much fly in the day before, whereas Australians, we've been off since like, the 17th.Yeah.Like, and Australia's pretty much on holiday 'til Australia Day.Yeah.Even I talked to my friends in the States and they're like, "Oh no, I'm working Christmas Eve."Like these are back, these are all still corporate lawyers, and I'm like- Yeah."You were lucky to have those 2 days off," and I'm like, "Well, wow," likeAnd it's wild to me.Yeah.This is a side note, I guess before we wrap up, but yeah, it is wild to me because in the US it is more common to like be catching flights somewhere to go, to go home for Christmas or to go somewhere.And I'm like, "But you don't have time."Like- You don't.No, it's really-What are, what are you doing?I don't understand.Yeah.It's so hard, and I think, uh, it's hard because I probably view business in Australia even like through this lens of growing up in the States and doing corporate litigation in the States- Mm.and just seeing the amount of overwork, and this idea of you live to work, and then like, you know, you're pretty much held together by stress, 5 hour energy drinks- Mm-hmm.and probably some other recreational things.Yeah.And I'm like, "But why?"Like, I remember when I quit my job, I was like, "I see my future.I have a massive house."Mm-hmm."And that's it, and like ten cats.Like, I don't have time to date.I don't have time to have a social life.""I don't have time to actually bring things into my life that bring me joy.So I'm gonna take a massive pay cut to go be a bar manager.""And just do what I like, which is talking to people, trying to get them to try new, something other than a New Zealand sauv blanc.No offense, great drink, but you know, there's other white wines."And it was, I remember when I did it, it was like this massive shock to everybody.Because they're like, "I just took a third of my salary."But I was like, "I'll have time.I have time to-" Ooh.And yeah, I don'tRealizing, you know, I didn't need the massive wardrobe and all the things in there.I didn't need the fancy stuff.I was like, "I'm actually quite happy with this tiny little life that's giving me the most valuable thing back, which is time."Mm.To say, "Hey, how can I be part of my community?How can I share knowledge?"Yeah.How can I build relationships when I'm not just nose-down grinding?Mm.Because, especially at that time, I was like, "Well, I don't haveI've got a mortgage, but I don't have school fees.I don't have any pressing bills other than the bills I create for myself."Yeah.Like handbags.AllBut yeah.It's, umI think it's a really hardThere's aWhat I've sort of found in the last decade is there's a lot of deep programming you've gotta do for your brain of like, what does success look like to me as an owner, as a business?And success, is it just defined by a financial summary?Mm.Or is it defined by my lifestyle and the presence of, you knowAm I around for my f- you know, when my friends are having marital problems, am I there to have that fun 007?Yeah.Or am I like, "No, I'm sorry, I'm busy writing a thought leadership piece for my LinkedIn for my like 10 followers to maybe engage with."That's all I've offer.And I think, and, and I think, like, there is definitely the balance of, you know, financial success can give us the resources- Yeah.to then be there more, but, but it's sort of we're, we're not talking about just at the survival level.We're talking more about, you know, beyond that in terms of the growth plan and, and that projection plan that a lot of businesses have and will do and will have, which I'm aLike, I like the process of setting goals, so I get a lot of enjoyment out of it, but it is still that, that real deep work of going, "Okay, well what is, what, what is the financial goal, but what does that actually allow me to do?"Yeah.And what is that, the fulfilling part of that?Not just the, the numbers in the bank, but what does that feeling give me that gives me energy to then go forth with?Yeah.And I think, I was reading about something with money mindset where you're like, you know, there's often a sense of you don't have a sense of what's enough.Mm.And like, you kinda get started and you're like, "Oh, IMay- maybe I have enough, but I'm scared to spend, so I gotta keep doing things."Mm.Again, I think these are all like luxury positions to have in mindsets, but really kind of paring it back, like, you know, I don't earn a lot and I'm lucky to haveLike, I'm in a relationship, so my partner doesLike, we've got 2 incomes, but I'm like, there's been massive trade-offs of like, we don't own our home.Our home.Like, our 2seater's not gonna come in pretty anytime soon.We have one car.Yeah.Like, I, for a lot of personal reasons, don't really shop.Like, if I do, it's secondhand.I like cooking.Like, we sort of made a lot of trade-offs, so- Yeah.we don't go out to dinner a lot.Because I've done the flip side where it's like, you know, we worked all the time and we earned money and then we never saw each other.And- Yeah.lo and behold, that expensive wedding was a waste of money.So, I think really kind of, it's hard when you're getting i- i- in this, especially in a business where you're like, "Oh, I've gotta go be on social media for my business," but then you're kind of sold this toxic story and it's like- Yeah.it's a big clusterfuck.And I, you know, there's no solution.I think the key thing of like, there's not a, not a black and white thing.It's not a solution.It's just where's your shade of gray of like- Yeah.what does, you know, your success for your business look like for you if you consider these wider regenerative, sustainable, holistic factors?Because your business is in a silo as an owner.Like, your husband's in the wife involved, your boyfriend's involved, your parents are involved.Everybody's touching it- Yeah.in some way.So what does it?And if this is the time of year when you wanna really pull back and focus on your family, like, just do it.LikeAnd also like, again, you're never gonna compete on the online ad space.Like- Mm.I was talking to my s- the guy who does Facebook, uh, meta ads for my clients and he's like, "It doesn't even matter what industry you're in.Like, it is just flooded."Mm.So you're like, this is not the time to really try to do it.So you can do things, you know, development activities that are, whether it's, you know, writing your year of content- Yeah.for December, January.So you've got all your blogs done for the year.Mm.And if you're not a good writer, do the bare bone thing of like just word vomit what you think you want to talk about it.Then you use AI to be like, "Refine this for grammar and syntax."Mm."Apply this tone of voice and then proofread it.Just for the love of God, proofread it again at the end."Please.Like-I read something the other day and it had at the bottom and it had the suggestion of like, "Would you like to tighten this up?"Oh, no.And I was like, "Unafraid to delete that."Yeah.But yeah.I'm kind of in funny warm.Like most times we said about the AI, I'm like, I think it can be such a good tool for business owners, but it's using it to your, to the right way.Not to necessarily take over things, but I deal with so many people and like, writing's not your strong point.Yeah.Lots of run-on sentences.AI can fix that for you.Mm.But just proofread it again.Like- Yeah.Just proofread it.But yeah, you can use this time of year for that, like set yourself up for next year.Yeah.Yep.That's exactly it.Well, I think there's a lot for people to noodle on there and to let percolate, and I think it's so important all of, like, all of that conversation and yeah, just that wrap up of the reminder that it's not always just gonna be a copy and paste.It's never gonna be a copy and paste.It's a- Yeah, 100%.Yeah.There's gonna be shades of gray that we need to allow for where we're at in our lives and what is most important in that moment that, you know, but also-considering the long term, not just the quick, the, the quick sort of tick the box fix of, "Oh, I'm doing the right thing."You know?It's like, but is that actually building the way that you want to and, and- Yeah.building successfully?So with that, if people are interested in any of your work and where they can find or connect with you, um, where can they do that?A website or anything else?Uh, definitely website, um, theotherconsultants.com.au, which I sporadically post on.I have a Substack, Classic Katie, which, again, I sporadically post on-which will probably be less about brand and more about life.Hmm.That sounds vague.Um, but yeah.Life and business.And, yeah, I'm pretty lazy on all the other channels- Yeah.'cause, again, I deleted them all with my phone, so.But I probably will do a dipping back into Instagram 'cause I do have a pretty solid following there and a lot of friends are still- Mm-hmm., you know.Don't post content, but then I have very robust DM conversations going on in a lot of places.Yeah.And I'm always happy to chat with anybody.Like, I don't care if I don't know you.If you've got a question, I am more than happy to talk about things because- Awesome.I just wanna say, it was like, you know, again, having had a brick and mortar small business and realizing how hard it is and how much people need help, but you can't afford senior help full time.Like, that's why I do what I do 'cause I'm like, I know people just sometimes need 3 hours of a conversation to be like- Mm-hmm."Am I on track?What am I doing?What can I do better?"And it's like, and like, if that'll help you, like, I will happily do those anytime 'cause myI know how hard it is.Yeah.It's hard, it's lonely.You're doing too many different things that the last thing you necessarily wanna do is like, "How do I grow?How do I grow in whatever way I wanna grow?"Yeah.And that's sort of my passion, but yeah, I'm more likely to have a conversation than you ever things to read or watch, so yeah, please- I love that.Go to my website.Yeah.I'll, I'll- Find me online, send me a message.I'll include all the links as well in the show notes, so then people can find you and find any of those avenues easily.But thank you so much for your time- Thanks, guys.and for joining us.Thank you.Ah, yes.Such a valuable conversation for all of us, but also at this time of year, I think when we're kind of at that peak of, "Have I done enough?Am I doing enough?Do I, I still have stuff to do, but I also need to wind down and I need to," and, you know, we're at that sort of reflection time of the year too.So- Yes.thanks for sharing.Thank you.Enjoy the rest of your week.