Ep 184 - The Trust Recession: How we lead, buy, and connect when everyone's on edge with Chelsea Quint

In this episode of Get Jasched, Jess is joined by Chelsea Quint – Business Whisperer, messaging strategist, copywriter, and host of The Resonance Effect – for a deep dive into what she calls the “trust recession.”

Together, Jess and Chelsea explore:

• What the trust recession actually is, and how it’s showing up in online business, leadership, and everyday relationships
• Why people are more risk-averse than ever – from leaving jobs to hiring, buying, or speaking up at work
• How chronic vigilance, burnout and nervous system overload are eroding our sense of safety, connection and belonging
• The tension between values, politics and business – and what it means to lead with integrity without disappearing into an echo chamber
• Disagreement vs disrespect: how to stay human, hold nuance, and keep talking when we don’t see the world the same way
• Parasocial relationships, “putting people on pedestals”, and taking responsibility for how we consume content and follow leaders online
• Practical questions to ask yourself about who you trust, who influences you, and how that shapes your leadership

If you’re a founder, leader, practitioner, or creator trying to do good work in a noisy, polarised world, this conversation will help you see why trust feels so fragile right now – and what you can do in your own sphere of influence to rebuild it.

🔗 Connect with Chelsea:
Instagram & Threads: @chelsea.quint
Podcast: The Resonance Effect
Website: business-whisperer.com

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Got a thought or story to share? Reach out via Instagram at @j_.leigh , on LinkedIn at Jess Jasch, or https://j-leigh.com.au/ - I’d love to hear from you!

Interested in booking a free consult to discuss wellbeing consulting, or embodied leadership coaching for you or your team? Book your time here: https://calendly.com/jess-jasch/book-zoom-now

Transcript

Hey, everyone.Welcome to another episode of Get Jasched.I'm so excited for the yap that we're gonna have today because I have Chelsea Quint joining me.So, Chelsea is the Business Whisperer host of The Resonance Effect podcast, and is an ex- an ex-corporate marketer turned messaging strategist who helps brilliant founders get their genius offers seen and sold.Chelsea cut her teeth in marketing for major brands, and now uses her expertise to help entrepreneurs break through the noise, with her approach treating business building as both art and science, as it should be, because that's what it is.Uh, when she's not helping clients, you can find her on the East Coast of the US with her chef husband, corgi, most importantly, 2 cats, trying to eat Mex- trying to eat Mexican- Mexican food for every meal.Feels.I got excited, like I was like, "Oh, yeah.That's so good."And- I know, right?And improvising songs about what her pets are thinking.Double feels.So- Yes.thanks so much for joining me.I'm so excited.My pleasure.This is gonna be good.It's gonna be good.Thank you for, uh, going through my entire intro.I know it's long and, as we will see, I am a long-winded girly.I am a long-winded- I love it, yeah.long-form girly, and- Mm-hmm.you know, I just live in the land of nuance.Yeah.Well, I felt like there was- Long-form nuance.I felt like all those parts of your intro were important, especially the last part, like even though it's not meant to be Mm-hmm.a test, because it's such aLike, I resonate.I love Mexican food.I-you know, we are likeI was just saying to the dog before, I was dancing along and she's just laying on the couch, and I'm like, "Well-" Yeah.I spend a lot of my time dancing for you, you know?""And you just-" Yes." spend very much time looking unimpressed."So all of these are-important factors.Yes.They are.They are.Mm-hmm.But I wanna get into so your recent season on your podcast, The Resonance Effect, um, you talk a lot about a trust recession at the moment.Mm-hmm.And, and that is super true.As a business owner, I can kind of see it, but I think we see it across the board.And- Mm-hmm.while you talk about it mostly in the context of buying and for business owners, do you see this or how do you see this across the board in areas like leadership or how people are communicating, and the impact on trust at the moment?Yeah.Yes.Yeah?Uh, answer, the, the answer to, "Do I see this elsewhere?"is yes.That's a very, very clear yes.Um, and I think, you know, I mean, we just named nuance, and then I'm gonna go into something that I actually think there's probablyI think there's probably a corrosion of trust in every aspect of life these days, because whether we're talking about, you know, being small business owners, which is a zone that I talk about in my, you know, public-facing work life a lot, whether we're talking about selling to other business owners or to consumers in the small business world.It also is happening in terms of the way that people arehow much people are trusting leaders at large, in terms of political authority, the way that trust, a, people are trusting, you know, countries at large, the way that people are trusting a general sense of safety and a general sense of things are gonna be okay, a general sense of, "I can take risks."I think that's one of the biggest ways that we know, um, there is a corrosion of trust is that people being less willing to take risks, whether it's in leaving a job and taking the risk to find something new, or in hiring someone.Like, the devil you know.There's so much of the devil you know is better than the devil you don't kind of thinking and acting, I think, across the way that people are spending, the way that people are traveling or not traveling, um, the way that people are, like, even relating with one another.I think it's gonna be really interesting, more so than normal this time of year, 'cause you and I are recording this a week before American Thanksgiving.Mm-hmm.Which is classically a time, um, when, at least in my side of the algorithm in the internet, um, and with my peers and friends, it's pretty classically a time where there are so many conversations about, you know, how do we navigate the conversations with our bigoted aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, our, you know, racist family members or whatever it might be.And in, in, in times past, it's a different conversation than it, it is now, 'cause now they're definitely different.I mean, I just heard from someone who's, umThe, the, the who it isAnyway, someone's not going to their family Thanksgiving because they're based in Chicago and they're concerned that one of, that, that, that their mother may be taken and kidnapped by ICE agents, which is a totally valid fear right now.Yeah.And yetSo I mean, in terms of, I mean, living in the United States right now, and for, uh, quite a number of years at this point, it has been quite a dystopian iteration of, um, lack of trust.But I think that it's, uh, it's- it's- it's trickling over to just about everything, you know?Yeah.It's like everyone's on edge andrightly so in a lot of ways, you know, in many ways, especially- Mm-hmm.for you all over there.But, you know, I, I know I feel vigilant in, in how that leaks into our own sort of- Absolutely.arena over here in Australia, like, 'cause it's relevant.And it'sAnd-it does feel different than it has, you know, in the past where you're like, "Oh, that's just, you know, silly aunt whoever or silly uncle," or whatever, right?Like, you can kind of- Right.y- we used toGenerally speaking, we used to be able to kind of laugh or brush it off and just ignore it and keep the peace and all of that.Right.But, but it justIt feels like the stakes are too high in a lot of ways- Exactly.genuinely, like you said, that, you know, people's lives are at risk.People's- Mm-hmm.People's lives are at risk.That's, that's just- Yeah.the full stop.That's the truth.And- Yes.And I feel like that does ripple out into a lot of other areas because there is this natural, very understandable, almost necessary vigilance in a way.But yeah, it ripples out into how we connect with other people.I know I feel vigilant, and I love connecting with people, and it's, and it's that balance of trying not to judge people and allowing people to have their own- Mm-hmm.you know, like, their own beliefs and experience in a way.But then it's- Mm-hmm.then it's this element of this challenge of, at what point do the beliefs cross the line into, "That's not just an opinion or a harmless opinion or your own, you know, and that's actually bigoted or damaging and gen- genuinely dangerous?"And- Yeah.Like, I'm feeling that, and that might be my hyperfixation kind of thing, but it's alsoIt does feel important- Sure.Like, it does feel important because it'sYeah, it's this, umFor, as a business owner, it's not wanting to sort of really associate with, or platform, or, or associate and work with someone or a company that is- Mm-hmm.damaging to the- Mm-hmm.physical health and life of other people.Mm-hmm.But then it's also like, "Well, I'm, I'm a sole trader.I don't have the resources to really figure that out sometimes, like, to go back and like- Sure.So, yeah, it's, it's such a genuine thing that people are experiencing at the moment, and I think it does- Yeah.compound on itself.And you can see why, but it also makes it hard because yeah, we're all tired.Our, our nervous systems are fried, and I'm not even in- Absolutely.your country, but that's- Yeah.how it feels.Absolutely.Absolutely.And I'm so glad youThis notionThere's a really interesting thing here that's happening with trust, and just the, the, the whole nebulous of what we're talking about.So, you're saying, as a founder- Mm-hmm.I share this value.As a founder, you don't wanna be supporting or helping develop the business necessarily, or helping platform, someone whose beliefs areI, I would categorize it as, like, against humanity.Yes.As, like, i- inhumane.Um- Yes.Or whose beliefs or practices, right?And I share that completely.I was actuallyUh, a friend of mine, um, has, as one of her pinned posts, uh, someI can't remember exactly what the language is, but something to the effect of, "In case it wasn't obvious, let me be clear.If you voted for Donald Trump, I don't want your money.I don't care- Hmm.how much.I will not help you make more money."She's a copywriter, and she's like- Yeah."I will not let my words make more money for someone who made that decision," and very, very clearly had that named.It's pinned.It's the- Yeah.first thing you see pretty much on her Instagram page, which f- uh, makes a lot of sense.And I've actuallyI've definitely posted.I think I have something.Mine is definitely more subtle, but I've definitely made these references as well.I've made it very clear.Uh, well, I think.God, who, who knows?It feels very clear to me, but I also feel like I sell literally every day, and people are like, "Oh, I didn't know you had an offer on right now."SoYeah.Wild.Who the heck knows?Who the heck knows?But the other piece, the nuance piece here is that while of course it is a perfectly reasonableLike I, I also don't wanna really work with anyone who has made those choices or who feels that way, it's really interesting to look at then, okay, let's like, let's future cast this a little bit.Let's forecast this a little bit.If I decide that in my professional life, I won't engage with anyone who made this voting decision, and therefore, anyone who sees that is gonna be, even if they live in Oz, or they live in France, or they live in wherever, right?Anyone who sees that, uh, who shares like, "Oh, actually, I like that guy," or, "Actually, I am afraid of immigrants and want them to be removed from the count-" whatever, anyone else who shares that is also probably gonna be like, "Okay no, I'm not gonna follow Chelsea.I'm not gonna listen to her.I'm not gonna consume this content."Okay, so all of a sudden, we're not, we're not connecting.We're not talking.Mm-hmm.And I'm only in thismore of this echo chamber over here with my friend Mac where we're like, "Don't hire us.We're not gonna work with you."Right?Like, and we're over here.Yeah.And our algorithms are looking more and more like this, and the folks who are like, "Okay well, screw them because they're saying this, I'm gonna go over here and work with a business coach who did vote for Trump and does like it or whatever."Yeah.Though I hearI'm like, "I hope no business coaches did."Of course they did.Of cou- of course someone did.Um, but, uh, I hope likeI hope no one in my industry did.Of course they did.Mm-hmm.But all of a sudden, it just brings up this really kind of messy, not super comfortable reality of it's the same deal that we've been playing around.If I just ignore the fact that my father-in-law twice voted for Trump and I'm gonna be like, "Okay, I'm not gonna be the one who makes a stir," because everyone else is uncomfortable and we don't wanna talk about it, if I do it there, if I don't engage with c- in conversation with people who are perpetuating racism in my industryIf IIf we don't do this, then I, IIt's, it's really whatat what point are things gonna change?Right?Yeah, it perpetuates the echo chamber.Yeah.Like on both sides.Exactly.Exactly.Exactly.And it also dehumanizesIt- it- it makes it so much easier, because we're more and more and more and more in an algorithmically driven world.Mm-hmm.That isthat has alreadythat makes everythat like makes information and connection challenging.Right?Yeah.And then when you add these really jarring, uh, high nervous system intensity subjects and topicsWhen you add these things in and we are suddenlynone of us are speaking to each other, I'm like, this isHow are we going to create change from here?Yeah, you can't break- Where we're villainizing the other side.Yeah, you can't break the divide.And like, I do villainize them.I do.I'm not sayingI'm like, I think it is wrong.Mm-hmm.I think it is so wrong, and Ibut that binary, uh, w- there is soThere becomes basically no room to connect.Mm-hmm.And I'm not saying it's easy.It's hella uncomfortable to imagine the notion of sitting down and trying to listen to someone who supports any of the violent, inhumane, and justices that have been happening in this country and around the world and in Gaza.I mean, it's hard to imagine.And how the hell are we gonna change anything if we can't?Yeah, exactly.And it'sit's this challenge of creating room for people.And, and look, I know position myself I'm the right one, right?But like, I'm the correctI'm in, I'm in the rightI'mI know this is how, how this is gonna sound.But it is about creating room.I'm gonna say it anyway.It's about creating room for people to- Say it anyway.Yep.Yeah, to amend and im- and improve bec- and like, I'cause I, I like to think that if I do make a mistake, and I will.Like I'm human, you know?I'm not perfect.I'm a white woman.Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna fuck up.Like I'm not trying to, but I'm going to.I'mThat is just the inevitability of it.But I also need to have room to learn.And sometimes, like, we ha- L- ahI'm not trying to fuck up, but sometimes we learn by fucking up.Mm-hmm.And we have to have room to actually do that, that U-turn, that turnaround.Like turn the vehicle around and go, "Okay," likeThis, I'm changing direction.I'm changing course.I'm, I'm trying to do better.We have to have room for that, and if we need, if we want room for that, we have to give other people room for that, while at the same time having room for accountability and- Yeah.and consequence if, if it's at that level.Like, I was just, uh, I was just saying before, I really can't wait for Nuremberg trials part 2.Truly, yeah.Yes.Truly cannot wait.Like, not because- Mm-hmm.I want people to be punished, but because that is where it's at, you know?Like, it's like- Absolutely.This is where it's at, and, and that is- Yes.that's a hope that I'm holding onto because looking at history, it's like, cool.Not cool, but at least there was some consequence, real life- Right.actual, tangible con-, you know?So, it's this- Right.It is this balance of holding humanity and also, you know, allowing, allowing people to, to do better, and that doesn't absolve any of us of some of the things.But yeah.It's such- Right.a balance, and, and, ah, it'sThat, that is challenging.It's really hard when you're in it, and it's, it's, I think it's a constant practice because otherwise, like you said, we do cut ourselves off c- from connection from each other.It perpetuates more distrust, which makes- Right.you know, and not even speaking, like, from the business of, you know, the business owner perspective of, oh, like, how do we buy then?Like, no one's gonna buy, but it is like- Yeah.I'm so beyond that at this moment of the conversation.Yeah.Like.But for me, it's like, I've had conversations with, like, potential clients who- Yep.have very clearly not been a fit politically, but it's not because- Mm-hmm.I'm the immediate no of this.It's because I know thatSo I, I do leadership training, and it's like embodied- Right.leadership.So some- Yeah.of those trainings include a very factual , very, like, textbook case of analyzing different styles of leadership, and just- Hmm.looking at different styles, and I will use real life examples, and as best I can, current examples of certain styles of leadership.So when it comes to autocratic leadership, I- You've got many examples.Yeah, but as much as- Present day.I hate having that particular picture, I hated putting it on the slide, but I'm like, "You know what?We need to actually do it."I'm just gonna- Yeah.speak about it, and it's not from, like, as the facilitator in that moment.It's not from the place of being divisive and trying to be like, "Ah, see?You know, Republicans are all bad."Like, it's not that at all.Because, you know, like, it's, it's notI'm in Australia.Like, you know?It's not even about- Right.It's not even, like, a partisan issue.It's literally just who fits, whose behaviors fit the- Is autocratic.Yeah, fit the textbook definition.Yeah.So in these conversations with certain, at that stage, potential clients, going, "Oh.""It's not just that you're saying these things and I don't agree with them.It's that I know that if I come into your team, your workplace, and talk about this, I know that that is going to create an issue for you or between- Hmm.us, and you're not open to that."And it is a judgment, but- Right.you know, you kind of just have to make those judgments sometimes.Like, it's- Absolutely.it's kind of from that place.So it is a constant balance, and, and I've had the conversation with people as well, where they're like, "Well, what if you could, you know, like, not convince people, but, like, if you work with people that are different politically from you, you know, you" Mm-hmm."could help them see other perspectives?"I'm like, "Yeah, I justThat can't be the aim.""That can't be- Right.my, like, that's notThat's a lot of work, and also that's kind of insulting to free will and, and democracy in a way, where people do ha- Like, you know, I'm not going in to c- to swing anyone, but-" Right.as long as they're open to just the facts, which is where it comes down to, and, and yeah.It's just such a, it's such a balance in how we connect with each other- Yeah.in that way.It's a balance, and you know, God's honest truth right now, it's just a mess.a mess.This planet's a mess.Hm.It's a mess.Yeah.And we are all, we are all doing our best, and I guess I think the biggest, the biggest thing that I keep trying to come back to is just checking where, like, I know pretty clearly, I know pretty clearly where I stand.There are some, there are certain political and human rights based opinions that I have that I don't think will change.Hm.But I, but I'm sure, I'm sure people feel the same way on the other side.I don't know.Um, I tr- I truly cannot imagine how someone would think that what ISIS is doing is correct, or that's the one that's in my brain recently because it, I had a conversation this week.But any of these myriad things, um, I just cannot imagine it.But still, it is so easy when we're thinking about, right, this idea of trust and the trust recession, it's so easy and, and natural, it is a natural human response to lean back into our own cognitive biases and limit information again, especially where we're just in an algorithm driven- Yeah.news, media, and information environment, um, now algorithm and AI driven.It's really, really, it's so important to me to do my best to, um, basically, like, not just put my own b- blinders on and fall prey to my own biases.Hm.And that is so hard.And sometimes I'm like, I can't, I don't even know where to look.I don't even know what to consume.Um, like, I don't even know.And some days-I'm like, I, to, to get out of bed and survive, today- Yeah.I need to not.Today I need to not look at the media as much.And, and, you know, that's a privilege to be able to do that and to say that because it's not currently at my doorstep at this current moment in time.But, um, it is, uh, inside of the trust recession on a broader scale, right, I think it has perhaps never been more crucial to be asking ourselves the questions of, who and what in my life is influencing me consciously and unconsciously?Because the reality is, you know, while there is a trust recession, so what that, a lot of what that means is that we are less, there's, like, less available trust.At least this is my definition.I haven't rooted this in any- Yeah.academic research or anything.But there's less available trust in a micro and a macro sense, and people are being much more therefore conservative with it, right?And so, but that doesn't mean that there isn't still trust, right?Like, I am still tending to trust that, um, I still trust, uh, do you know?I don't know how international her public profile is, uh, Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez?I do.The senator.I know her.You do?Okay.I was just saying.Yeah.I feel like she's, I mean, she's, she's big in my world.Um, but I- She's, she's big in my world even, but yeah, I'm- Okay.Fabulous.Not everyoneSo if you, for anyone who is listening who does not know who AOC she's typically called, uh, but, um, AOC is a, um, Democratic, uh, se- houseNow I'm doubting myself.House member?congresswoman.She's a senator, isn't she?Is she?She's a con- she, she is a congresswoman.I was trying to say whether she's in the House of Representatives or the Senate.Oh, yeah.I, I should know, and I don't remember.Um, but she is a congresswoman from New York, um, and, uh, she's incredible.She, I, I mean, I don't actually know.I think so based on what I know.She is an example of a public entity who via public facing channels as a congresswoman, um, I still trust.And so when I see media come up about her, when I seeI'm on her, like, text newsletter.I'm on her email newsletter 'cause I don't live in New York anymore, but I did, um, and so I've gotten to vote for her a handful of times.But she's someone who I still trust, right?And so that is shaping my interaction with her content and my re- receiving of these emails, et cetera.That is shaping, that is influencing me.Mm-hmm.I think for the better.I think for good.I think, but I s- I think I'm right.But if we're thinking about, you know, I just think it's really important to even see, that's an example of, like, a directly political leader, but also if you're working in a corporate environment still- Yeah.what's the culture there?Who is impacting you?I'm thinking about my last corporate job many moons ago.But the leaders, I mean, gosh, 10 years ago when I was in my corporate job, I, I will perhaps never get over this.Um, it makes me laugh at this point, but in the real time, I was so enraged because I was told, um, after a client, a client dinner, I was told by my boss that I shouldn't talk about anythingparticularly hot button, um-uh, god, I wish I could remember the exact language, but it was something like that.I shouldn't talk about particularly hot button things, like, just stay away from anything too, you know, like divisive or what have you.Exactly.And she's saying all of this, and I'm kind of like, "Okay, heard."And I'm going back through my memory.I'm like, "What did IDid I talk about abortion?Like, what did I talk about that I'm now, like, what did I di-" Yeah, was it something, like, really out there that people were, like- What did I, did I say, like, I d, like, was it global warming?I'm, like, genuinely, I'm like- Yeah.literally, "What did I talk about?I don't know."And so I'm listening, internally being, like, s- enraged.Internally, I'm like, "I am so upset at someone policing my conversation."Um- Yeah.But then when she got through her spiel about what I was not to do and her feedback, I said, "Okay, heard.Could you give me an example?"'Cause I had come up with nothing.I was like, I genuinelyI'm enraged no matter what your note is.Yeah.Yeah.I'm just, no matter what.But also, I feel so confused as toAnd the thing that was hot button, um- Oh.was my vegetarianism.Oh.Oh, no.My vegetarianism that had been brought up because we were at a steakhouse- Yeah.and I was the only one not eating steak.didn't bloody well bring it up, right?Anyway, I completely stood by myself.And then I'm like, "What do you do?"And people ask questions about it, and they're like, "Why aren't you having steak?"You're like, "Well, actually, this."And then so, "I don't eat meat."And I said, "I don't eat meat."End of sentence."Oh, why don't you eat meat?"'Cause people always wanna know, "How long's it been?"I've been vegetarian since I was 11.I've been a- I've had this conversation thousands of times.And depending- Oh.on the archetype, these were, these were, uh, like middle America white dudes who worked at a tire company.Mm-hmm.Right.Eating steaks- Picture exactly, yep.So, exactly, so they wanna like, "Does this gross you out?"Holding the steak up.And I'm like, "No, I'm good.""Been dealing with this since I was in middle school.Thank you very much-" Yeah." for being just like the 13-year-old boys I went to school with."Um, so anyway- Mm-hmm.And these men are in charge of companies.It's fine, yeah.Uh, yeah, completely fine, right?But in those moments- Ugh.where your, you know, job, your stability, your income, that's the word I'm going for, where that relies on you maintaining a certain degree of status and decorum, right?Where you trust and where you're influenced and how that shapes you is, uh, it's something to be quite, it's something that we all need to be, I think, or I don't know, need to beI feel like what right do I have to tell anyone what they bloody well need to be doing at this point?Like, survive, dude.Survive-however you can, and, like, let's all live to fight another day and choose to believe that this, these dystopian times will-dissolve and dissipate and shift back into, um- It'll shift, yeah.Yeah, yeah, sooner than later.But, um, I think it behooves us, it is useful for those of us who are looking for that shift, um, and, and, and not keen on the, the direction that our species is heading.Um, I think it's really useful to look at what is influencing me.Mm-hmm.And you've gotta keep yourself safe because if you, you know, are at a job where you too are not allowed to talk about being vegetarian because it is too hot button, then okay, maybe you need to, you know, you need to keep yourself safe, keep your finances safe.Yeah.Um, you need to do that, but also, right, who, who else are you putting your trust in?Where else are you- Exactly.able to safely vent and express so that, you know, your ownOur brains are plastic.Our, our, you know, our expectations are plastic, and that's the thing we've seen with every, maybe not every, okay, with, with many giant human rights atrocities.With many giant, um, horrifying times that we've navigated as a species, right?It, it happens slowly.It happens in the- Mm-hmm.tiny little micro-moments of ICE invading Chicago, like, and the National Guard invading, like, that, it happens in these little moments that feel little enough in real time, the little moment of not saying something to your boss, I'm not saying, I mean, I don't know, but when we're looking at, I think, trust and where we're being influenced and who we're trusting and where we're being influenced, thoseare such important things to look at right now, especially if you are in any position of leadership.Like, whether that's professionally or you have kids or you're on the PTA or you're part of your homeowners association, whatever, like honestly, all of us have positions of influence.All of us have places where we lead to varying degrees.Um, and so I just think it's really important to be kind of doing that kind of s- doing that self-inventory of where am I being influenced and how is that numbing me to things- Yeah.or pushing me toward more silence or more complicity in, you know, not standing up for things that I'm like, "Actually, you know, I do know that that's incorrect.I do know that-" Yeah." treating our clients that way is incorrect.And it might be small, but it's not right.Or that employee, I know, I know that that's not the way that it should be and I don't wanna let all this external noise and the trust recession influence who I am and, and distort who, like, my humanity."End rant.Yeah.The that was a great rant because it's the-the s- the standard we follow is the s- standard we set.Like, you know, it's- Yeah.It's not about- Yeah.what we wish internally, but it's the one that we follow as well.LikeYeah.And this is about discernment in, in what feels right for us, a- at any point, even though, like, it's so big now.I remember, gah, every time I think about how long ago something was, I'm rudely reminded of-like, not that I feel old, but it's just the, like- I understand.I'm like, "Oh, that was 13 years ago?"I understand.But likeIt was about- Yeah.13 years ago, I was in a role and I said good morning to the CEO, and- Yeah.I called him by name and it's, it was like- Mm-hmm.the difference between Jess and Jessica, so like, I'm not gonna use his name, but like, you know, his name was- Yes.Jessica, I called him Jess because some other people did too, and also that's just me.Yeah.Like, I- Yeah.you know, like, it's, to me, that's not inappropriate unless he directly said- Of course."Oh, can you call me Jessica?"I prefer being called- Right.like, you know, like preferred names, right?ButYes.I called, I said, like, "Oh, good morning, Jess!Like, how was your weekend?"And I remember a middle manager said to me, "Oh, that was a bit inappropriate, wasn't it?"And I'm like, "I'm sorry?Why?"And she's like, "Oh, it was a- a bit familiar."I'm like, "Mm."Oh.And I am respectful of, like, I'm not an anarchist.I'm, I'm respectful of authority, but I also have like enough of a "Don't tell me what to do" in me when it's stupid things, and I, I- Yes.took that as a stupid thing because it's like, this isn't, literally isn't harming anyone.If this person had a problemabout it, but like, that was like a core moment for h- me, like obviously a core moment because I'm bringing it up now all these years later, but like, 0 for me, going, "What is advice or direction I'm willing to take and learn from?"Mm-hmm."And what is something that's actually going to reinforce what I value and for me, that was like a form of connection that was very appropriate.It wasn't like I was si- like, sliding up on his desk being like, "Hey."It w- gross."Hey, Jess."It was likeYeah.It was just like very casual walking through the 0 open plan office, right?So I was like, "Oh, hey."Yeah."Hey, Jess.How you going?Like, d' you have a good weekend?"Like, I'm gonna speak to you like I speak to everyone else, with respect.Mm-hmm.Because you speak to everyone else with respect as well.Exactly.And it's, you know, it's even those little things and how do we, like, even for the, the hot button topics that someone had deemed this a hot button topic in a way, you know?LikeMm-hmm.So it's, I think it's how we connect is really determining what do we value andMm-hmm.I've even had, you know, I've had, uh, someone reach out to me after a long time who is in the States and- Mm-hmm.s- and say that they regret voting the way that they, that they voted.Sure.And I, like, and that, that was like a moment for me on the other end of that, like, you know, just messaging interaction.But I was like- Yeah."Okay."I'm just, like, I'm just gonna, in this case, approach it with, like, the empathy of, "I'm so sorry things are so screwed up there for you guys at the moment.It seems so scary."Yeah.You know?Yeah.Because I didn't wanna have, likeI'm not looking for but also, like, I don't know, who am I, like, you know?It's, it's just this how do we connect while still acknowledging where mistakes might have been made or where harm might have been done?And this is obviously a very nuanced piece, so, like, this isn't gonna apply everywhere.There's some people- Yeah.that I want, you know, like, put away.Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.Like, but you know?There are certain atrocities that are, like, no, the punishment is large.Yeah.The punishment is large for that, and you should not have power and complete agency to continue causing harm.Yeah, exactly, but it's, it- Sometimes that's how it goes.But I think in leadership, in a very basic, outside of the political sphere, even though it touches all of our lives- Sure.in leadership, how we lead at any level, in any capacity, whether we have the title or not, is, is, yeah, what standard are we leading by, are we setting?Yeah.'Cause that's the one that is going to exist.I don't know, I feel like that builds trust because it just, it's more, it's more real.It's moreBut it's not trying to manipulate trust either.It's just a, "Well, this is, I can't be anything other than this."Like, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna call you Jess."Unless- Right.you say your preferred name, and then I'll call you your preferred name, and that's cool, like that- Right.Yeah, it's justWell, and I think so much of it is about i- in, in this broader leadership, like stepping away from any of the, you know, the political- Mm-hmm.madness that is currently- Yep.inside of the US and trickling out to the rest of the world.Outside of that, in leadership in a corporate environment orI feel like parent/teacher, like school- Mm-hmm.and home owner examples are such good examples of this, um, because one of the things that I really believe corrodes trust, and it's the same in my business, small business ecosystem.One other thing that really corrodes trust and, um, corrodes and prevents trust from even being able to exist in the first place is lack of safety around how do we disagree or- Mm-hmm.have conversations when we maybe don't even disagree, but don't understand, right?Like, this moment of Jess/Jessica- Yeah.or I'm a vegetarian.Hm.Like those moments for both you and I were like, "What?I'm sorry."It's true."I was inappropriate?"Yeah."Are y-Oh."And we both were like, "You're ridiculous."It sounds like I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but for me- It's-I was genuinely like, "W- what?"It was that feeling.It wasn't, yeah, it was just like, "I don't get it."Like, "No."And in those moments when it's small, right, in those moments, most of the time, especially if you are not in the position, especially when you are not the leader, right?Yeah.Challenging that, it feels typically easier to be like, "Okay."Mm-hmm.And then just go and message your friends in the office and be like- Or talk about it on a podcast 30 years later.oh god, I'm never gonna believe Yeah, exactly, exactly.Oh, God, I hope both of our bossesI don't, mine will never hear this.But I hope theyIt would crack me up.It would crack me up.Yeah.Um, I could, I could still text mine.I sh- I should text her, be like, "Hey, I talked about you on a podcast tonight."Um, she'd be like, "Why?"She'd be very suspicious.Um, but truly, and I say, like, it's, it's important, I think, to note that I, in the moment, I did feel tremendous animosity toward my boss.I felt incredibly mad at her, and I- Yeah.felt, I, I experienced tremendous judgment toward her.There was a lot of like, "You are stupid.You are like-" I r- I had thoughts like that.I'm not- Yeah.I'm not proud of this.Because you're human.I'm being honest about it.Yeah.Yeah.I don't love that that's what I thought, but I genuinelyYeah.That was- Yeah.a lot of the language.And when that iswhen that exists inside of an ecosystem, I, IThat's where things can become really toxic.And trust, like trust cannot possibly bloom because we are going to disagree with one another and be confused by one another and have different definitions of what is and is not appropriate to call someone and what is and is not appropriate to talk about at dinner with a client.Like, and, and even if you have the most ridiculously thorough SOP document with every single scenario outEven if you have that, there will be things we didn't think about.And so, in any leadership position, and this is, I think, especially true why the, like, PTA or homeowners are such great examples of it, because they're so, uh, theyThey're so much less operationalized a lot of the time.And we're also dealing with issues, kiddos and schooling or homes and like shared community space.We're dealing with issues where there are so many of our own deep seeded opinions that most of us have, like, never even super consciously thought about or wrestled with, right?And then we, like, have this person who completely disagrees with us, and we're just like, "You are saying the sky is yellow, and I cannot possibly fathom how dumb you must be.What?"Right?And we get irate because we don't know.So that's why I think they're just such useful examples to look at, like the leadership and how this, you know, how important this is.Because if you have a agreed upon, relatively safe, not necessarily comfortable, but relatively safe process where we agree, "Okay, I agree and you agree that when we disagree, you can tell me I'm having a really hard time with that feedback.I m- I'm having a really hard time understanding, and it really doesn't match my experience.And I don't need this to be a big deal, but it is for my system right now.It is feeling a big, a big deal for me.So can we set a different time to talk about this?Whatever."LikeYeah.If we have that agreed upon, thenSmooth sailing.Like smooth sailing.So much is different.LikeYeah.Yeah.So much is different.Um, and so wherever you're leadingGod, it's even true, like, if you're in a relationship, like a romantic partnership.Like, the number of times my partner and I have conversations like that of like, "I feel really enraged with you right now, and I recognize it's perhaps ridiculous.Can we take a beat?"And like we do our best to try to be like, "I am feeling, lot of very spicy feelings right now."And, umBut we have this shared thing that like, "Okay, this is how we lead together in our relationship and, and sharing our home and whatever of like, I find it really confusing that you don't make the bed when I've asked you to."Yeah.And let'sLike, can we have a process about that, you know?Yeah.I teach that as like learning, like building a common language with each other.Yeah.So you can use words likeI've used that with previous housemates.We had a word where it was, "I feel spiky today," if something's just off.Yeah.Like unexplainable, nothingYou know how you justBut it's got nothing to do with the other person and both of us were- Yes.maybe, uh, maybe just the kind of type where like, "Did I do something?"You know?So we just learned to say- Mm-hmm.like, if it's like, "Is everything all right?Are you okay?"And if the other person's like, "I justYeah.I just feel a bit spiky," it's like- "Spikey."awesome.Awesome.We knew that as a common agreement.Like we agreed, okay, when one of us says that, it gent-Like it's got nothing to do with the other person.We just need a bit of space or whatever, and it's all good.Like that as well as disagreement does not automatically equal disrespect.And personally, within my own realm of, I guess, values is unless it's directly harmful to someone else.Mm.Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.Like, you know, disagreement does notIt justYou know, the political atmosphere.Like, it's like, oh yeah, there's the caveat.Like disagreement does not automatically equal disrespect- Right.unless it is directly harmful or taking away from the human rights of somebody else.Yes.Right.That's it.And it justLike, it'sItThe world is still complicated, but it simplifies- Mm-hmm.my own positioning in that.Mm-hmm.And, you know, I just had a thought.I feel like some of thisActually, I, I haven't had this thought.I, I haven't had this thought previously.So I love when this happens in real time.A brainYeah.It's nice.It's nice.It's nice.Um, the- there'sI- I'm seeing a connection betweenRight, trust recession and your initial, like, well, part of your initial outreach, um- Mm-hmm.with your hilarious Derek, uh, message-that's, that's now our inside joke.Yeah.N- never, never trust voice-to-text.But luckily you noticedI had a little bit of translation to do from, uh, from Jess's initial, initial outreach.Um, it was brilliant though, I think I got what you meant.I think it- I think-was supposed to be direct, I think.Yeah, like, we're here.I feel like it's- So I think we got there.WeYes, we got there.We got there.Um, but I think one of the initial, uh, one of the, the sort of pieces you were kind of wanting to dig into is- Mm-hmm.questions around who we follow.Yeah.And so, this idea of, you know, disagreement doesn't inherently m- mean disrespect, I think it's so interesting how that plays out and how the experience of disagreement, especially in parasocial relationships or relatively parasocial relationships that happen on social media, right?Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.Um, and I feel so weird saying, like, parasocial relationships with myself, because I'm not bloody famous.I'm not.But the truth is, there are parasocial relationships, like, there are a lot of people- Yeah.who know me and listen to me.have no idea mostly who listens to my podcast.I have absolutely- Exactly.no idea.Yeah.Like- Yeah.There are hundreds of people on my email list.I do not know them all, and some of them come and go- Mm-hmm.and unsubscribe and Like, I don't know them all, and many of them do know a lot more about me, and it's a curated sense of me, but I'm also a bit of an open book.And so, I do share some personal stories, whatever.Um, and, and it's so fascinating to witness the i- instantaneous trigger around canceling someone or, um, getting so mad.I mean, goodness, the mean email replies.The email replies that I've gotten over the years have been so much meaner and more comprehensive than the comments I've gotten.Oh God, yeah-I've gotten some nasty ones.I've gotten some nasty novellas in the years.Oh.Um, justYeah.Yeah.Not many, but- Enough.ones that were very s- But yeah, enough that I, they, they live in, they have lived in my body for sure.Oh.But it's all good.I genuinely laugh about them pretty much at this point.Yeah.Um, but if one came tomorrow, it would, it would, it would give me some feels for a minute.Um, I'm far less, I'm far lessBut that's the thing though, I'm far less, I'm far less sensitive about it now, because I think this goes 2 ways, right?As people who decide to be in leadership positions, whether that is in a corporation or because you use your voice on a podcast or on your social media channels, or you send emails, or you have a Substack, whatever it may be, you write a book, whatever.Um, being people in leadership positions means we will get, particularly if you have a digital presence, more disagreement from people.Mm-hmm.And I, for the majority of the last decade, took every single bloody piece of it from even, like, an unsubscribe.I took the disagreement of an unsubscribe so personally.I took it so personally as disrespect.Like, it crushed me.Yeah.Crushed me.And realizing now, and some of this is just straight up nervous system work, I c- I've got a, I've got a m- a much wider window of tolerance now-than I did a few years ago, um, in part because I've done some reps and had people say really unkind things about me and then I've not died, um, about it.Yeah, we've survived.So, here, here we are.Here we are.Um, but i- having, having the internal realizing of disagreement doesn't mean disrespect, disagreement doesn't mean I'm not safe, disagreement doesn't have to mean anythingDoesn't have to mean I've done anything wrong even.Mm-hmm.It might.It might.But having that internal recognition, I think, c- is really valuable as leaders, again, in whatever s- sphere we're leading, um, particularly online.But I think it's also really, really useful to look at on the counter side.Um, do you followGosh, what is her name?She is an Aussie.Uh, Peta is her first name.Oh, no, I'm not gonna be able to think about it.I'm gonna have to send you herYeah, I f- I subscribe to her Substack and I can't remember her last name.Oh.But anyway, she's been writingDo you know?Is it r- ringing a bell?Yeah, I think I know who you're talking about.I can't think of her surname a- anyway.Yeah, um- Yeah.I think I know who you're talking about.Perhaps.She's been writing about, uh, long and short, not, uhB- IM- my interpretation of it is taking less responsibility for other people's internet reactions to- Mm-hmm.what she puts out into the world.Yeah.And actually suggesting that they, we collectively, should be more responsible for navigating our own triggers of why notFor, for essentially not expecting one person on one podcast or one Substack to thoroughly document- Yeah.the entire nuance and say it completely correct, umMm-hmm.And it's funny, when I first read it, I still got a little triggered.I was like, "Oh, I don't know, it might still be my job I might have to manage.I don't know, I don't know.I might have toWhat if they get mad at me?What if I do it wrong?What if?"Yeah.Um, a few weeks ago, like, this was recently, as I'm saying I have a wider window of tolerance, I do, but there is this really from both sides, I think, as consumers, when we're looking at- Mm-hmm.who we're trusting, "Who am I trusting by following them, by continuing to receive information from them, by in- continuing to invite them into my inbox or my ears?"l- I think a u- a really useful thing to look at, an important thing to look at, is also, like, where am I or how am I making sure I retain my own agency around my own regulation and the way that I'm, like, affected by the information that I consume and affected by the relationships- Mm-hmm.parasocial and otherwise, that I, that I choose to be in.Um, and I think, I don't know, for me, you know, this thought isIt's a new one, so obviously it's still a bit viscous and crystallizing, but there's something about y- the way you said disagreeing is not disrespect, that feels- Mm-hmm.like a reallyThere's a really useful way to carry that over, both as consumers of content on the internet and people having parasocial relationships on the internet, and as leaders on the internet and in corporations and PTAs, et cetera.I don't know if that made- Yeah, like-a lick of sense but it felt like- No, it does.a ding for me.It is.Like, and I think to sort of wrap up, 'cause w- sort ofI could keep talking- Mm-hmm.about this, but, like, it is aboutWe can't address every single potential angle and, and I, and I still s- will say, like, sometimes several times throughout a podcast episode, I'll be like, "All right, so, like, this is just from my"You know, likeBut it's like, I can only speak to my experience or what we know, maybe academically or re- you know, like, I can only speak to that.I try my best, but we can'tLike, we can't sit there going, "All right, so like this, this, this, this, this, this, this," before we actually get to the damn point.Like, we have to trust that other people- Right.are intelligent enough, sometimes- Yeah.like, the people that are reading it, like, individually, can be intelligent- Yeah.enough to trust, maybe, that- Yeah.you know, weLike, that, that, that is the intention even though, like- Mm-hmm.there's this balance of we need to try our best, but also trust that that's the intention always, as best we can.Yeah.But also, sometimes we just have to speak to a certain subset of our audience and, and j- just to help them get the point across.You know, like, it's about sometimes we just have to communicate.It's like if I was trying to say something to you, but I was saying it to a whole group of people that I don't know, you wouldn't necessarily get the point of what I'm trying to say, because I'm not- Exactly.just talking to you.So, it is that, and then there's also the element of when we trust people and when we follow people and trust people or buy from people or, or let people lead us or whatever it isMm-hmm.We shouldn't put them on a pedestal where everything they do, we have to agree with, or every opinion they have-we have to agree with.There can be key ones, for sure.Like, again, going back- Mm-hmm.to the what's the real, likeUh, you know.But we cannotLike, if someone doesn't like the same artist or they didn't like, you know, whatever it was, it's like, "Cool, that doesn't make them better than me, doesn't make me better than them."Like, it's justIt's subjective and that's harmless.Yeah.Like, you know ?Like, that is truly- Yeah.harmless and that is okay.Yeah.You know, things like that where it's like we don't need to agree a h- literally 100% with the people that we trust or follow or, like, any of that.We, weThere should be no pedestal in that way of, "Oh, what they say is 100% correct."'Cause they will always disappoint us.Mm-hmm.if we do that.Even if we don't have them on the p- even if we don't- Mm.they will probably disappoint us.Yeah.Because they're human, and if- Yeah.they don't love the same restaurant that we did, or go to the same event- Exactly.or they have a low energy day and they're a bit spiky, to borrow your term- Yeah.when you meet them in person, whatever.Like, yeah, they'll disappoint us.They will.Yeah.That's okay.Uh- Or to reframe it, we will feel disappointed.Yeah, the- yeah.Not like, you know, 'cause they haven't been there, but we will feel disappointed.Yes, yes, bring the responsibility back.Yes, exactly.Yeah.Exactly.Yeah.Well, speaking of following nice little segue.How, how c- how can people follow your work, connect with you if they wanna connect with you or work with you or your incredible services?Where can they find you?Yeah.If you're ready to be disappointed by me, because I will fail youThe most compelling pitch I've perhaps ever given.Amazing.I'm sure I will.I am sure I will absolutely do something wrong.I don't know.I am vegetarian.Um, I've shared a lot of my opinions at this point.Um, I'm both a dog and a cat person though, so, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm evenly in the middle there.Well-rounded.Yep.Um, yeah, well-rounded in the animal department.At any rate, um, I am @chelsea.quint on Instagram and Threads on the social platforms.Those are the biggest places I'm present there.And The Resonance Effect is my podcast.That's pretty much available anywhere podcasting is.That's probably the main place to hear me yap and, and get a good sense- Mm-hmm.of what my work is about and test it out for yourself.And then my website is business-whisperer.com.Amazing.I'll put all of those links in the show notes anyway, but thank you so much for joining us and for sh- for just yapping with me, 'cause there was so much My pleasure.and I think this is such a good conversation for people to, like, listen to, and I say that, unbiased, but like, you know, listen to, but also absorb and explore how they wanna have their own conversations in this way, 'cause that is, that is the whole point.Like, we're, you know, we can't lose that art.It is an art.It is a practice.But if we have the black and white binary thinking, we, we risk losing it.So, thank you for helping reminding us.