Ep 172 - Leadership Boundaries: Building community without the burnout

We hear “set boundaries” all the time—but what does that actually mean when you lead people, hold responsibility, and want to stay connected? This episode gets into the nuance of setting strong, flexible boundaries without shutting down or selling out.

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Transcript

Hey, everyone.Welcome to another episode of Get Jasched.I am your host, Jess Jasch.Today, we are having a very, very important conversation about boundaries in leadership, and really defining what boundaries are so that you can still have community, first and foremost, um, and also provide leadership support, but without burning yourself out in the process.So we are talking about boundaries which empower and show compassion to yourself and to others along the way.Because boundaries are a funny, funny thing that are veryAnd not necessarily funny, ha-hauh, that are very challenging sometimes for people to grasp.And I also know that many times I have spoken about boundaries with people, with clients, the immediate reactionand it is a reaction, it's not necessarily a cognitive thought process, but is a reactionis that, oh, boundaries are a way to isolate or they are a punishment, not just a consequence.I see consequence, the word consequence, as neutral because it's not a punishment, it's just the outcome because of something else that has happened, but often people will see boundaries as a punishment for something and it's actively pushing people away.That is not what boundaries are at all.But then there's the, the other, like, the other end of the pendulum, which is where boundaries are of- can be weaponized.Uh-huh.They can be weaponized.We s- it gets blown up a lot on social media too in this way, um, where boundaries are used as a manipulation tactic instead orand this is sort of similar, butor boundaries are used as, as the only way forward, entirely forgetting community and being in community, and of service with and for each other.Um, and there's a lot to be said about that, about how that plays up in certain cultural groups and how we can kind of use today's conversation to maybe get a clearer understanding on what boundaries are rather than using them as this blanket term that could be used to try and control someone elseor as an excuse to not actually genuinely connect with someone else.Um, and we all need connection.I say this as an autistic person: We all need connection, guys.Um, we are a social species and, and we all need different kinds of connection, don't get me wrong.We all have different needs there, but we all need to be able to connect with other people, and when we have boundaries creating confusion, either end of the pendulum that it swings, we have a more disconnected society.So hopefully this helps, um, because this is also a really important well-being practice as well, that as a leader, for you as a leader can directly impact, you know, your performance, the culture you are creating, the trust that comes out of that culture that you're creating, you know, all of the important things here.So we are exploring, exploring that.So we're often told that great leadersand I'm speaking from the workplace context here, right?We're often told that great leaders are available 100% of the time, immediately respons- responsive, selfless, but without boundaries.And without boundaries, even these leaders who are often well-meaning, you know, are trying and doing the best with what they know, this creates a sense ofthis can create a sense of chaos, like it can be chaos, it can be internal chaos and confusion.So not having and not being aware of what your own needs are, that then translate into what a boundary is, can create confusion in the other person.So let me define something for a moment.Boundaries are not how we control someone else.They are not intended to control anyone else in that way.And I'm not talking about legal boundaries.That is a different, obvious conversationshould be an obvious conversationbut I'm talking about boundaries are not and should not be an attempt to control another person.So you cannot have a boundary that stops someone doing something that is, you know, legal and whatever it is, um, an expression of themselves.You can let them know that you're not comfortable with it, but you cannot try toor for whatever reason, but you cannot try to control them.You canyou need to own it.is what I'm saying.Um, so the boundary cannot be about controlling someone else's actions or feelings or decisions.They need to be free to choose how they respond to your boundary.Your boundary is more about, umThere's aI'm not going to name names, but there is a, a well-known example in a celebrity relationship where one person in the relationship set a, quote, boundary about what the other person, uh, about, yeah, what the other person wore and who they took photos with.And the other person, they were wearing something that was very in line with what their job is, what their work is, what their profession is.Um, and the way that the boundaries were worded from the first person were, uh, an attempt to control the other person.It was a, My boundary is this, so you need to do this, when what would have made it more of a boundary was, I feel a certain way.This is what this makes me feel, and actually just communicating that rather than, I'm uncomfortable, so you need to do this.It's, This is what ma- this makes me feel, and then actually unpacking that.This is a whole therapy thing that I'm not qualified for, so that's as far as I'm going to go with that example.But that's an example of trying to control, or what it could have been if it really was a boundary.So for you as a leader, obviously it's going to be a little bit different because the, the relationship is different, right?It's not a personal, intimate relationship.It is a workplace relationship or an organization relationship or a, more of a professional thing.But your boundaries cannot be about controlling another person.They need to be about controlling your own actions, really.Um, so it's thisA common example, and this boundary works for everyone, right?Um, well, not literally everyone.It works for people across the board in terms of leadership or not leadership or whate- whatever it is.So a, a common boundary for work is not checking emails after, after hours.Depending on what country you're listening to this from, um, might depend on what your experience of this is, as some countries have, um, uh, uh, generalizing, some countries in particular have quite a, um, a corporate approach to this where it is very exploitative against employees in this way.So I'm speaking from the perspective of being an Australian, being in Australia, and generally, not perfectly by any means, but generally speaking, there is this, um, understanding, and in some cases, literal right to switch off laws, um, but there is this general understanding that people should not have to reply to work emails outside of hours.I'm not talking about the outliers or the special occasions or the, Oh, it'sBut what about for these scenarios?I'm talking about generally.So if, if your immediate response was playing devil's advocate, the devil has enough advocates.But if your immediate response was playing devil's advocate and going, Well, what aboutWhat if it's this particular scenario?And look, I get it, because sometimes I like to look for, for, um, specif- specificity too.But generally speaking, for anyone in a workplace, they shouldn't have to do work or ch- be on-call with emails unless that is part of the actual role, be on-calls with e- for emails or, or actual calls outside of hours.That shouldn't be an expectation.Their boundary with themselves could be, "Well, I'm not gonna check it.I'm gonna turn off notifications."So for me, in previous employment arrangements, and I've made it really clear with, um, with my director team each time this has happened, right?Because in previous, when I have been employed, when I used to be employed by someone not myself, uh, I m- I let them know.I was quite open.It's like, "Oh, I've got, you know, the email app, I've got it on my phone.I t- I have notifications turned off.Or I have out our chat, whatever our chat platform is, on my phone so if I need to or if I want to, I can just go in.I don't have to re-log in.It's already there.I can just go in and check, but I do not have notifications on my personal phone for work things that are employment-related."That is the boundary I have.Notice that I'm not placing that boundary on someone else.I am not saying to someone else, "Don't email me after hours."They can do what they like.If that works for them,I'm not telling them what to do.I'm not trying to control their behavior.I am simply letting them know or just not doing it, but I am simp- in my case, it was I am letting them know, "This is, this is how I operate."And it wasn't a big conversation.It wasn't a big, "I need to sit you down and tell you something."It was just simply in, in passing really.They, they might have, when I'd walk in, they might have mentioned, "Oh, you might not have seen the email yet," or, "You might not have seen my, my chat message yet."And I can be like, "Oh, no, I, I haven't.I haven't looked."And that's it.That's an example of a workplace boundary that you can set in that way.As a leader, there's gonna be nuance, and we're gonna get to that because it is important to consider when you are leading a team, but that is an example.And see how that example isn't about pushing people away?It's a not- it's not about punishing anyone.It was very neutral.It was just simply about creating the conditions in which I work best.And legitimately, as per a contract that was involved, and that contract was these are the hours.So, that is an example, and what that did is it created, I think there was mutual respect involved.They seemed pleased that I was just, uh, taking care of my own energy hygiene in that way and doing what I needed to do so that if they needed to send me something outside of hours, they could and that's no problem because that's their workflow or that's their thing, and I, you know, th- there seemed to be like a respect but also a relief.It created clarity of, all right, this is what you can expect.And it created safety for, for me, for my energy, for the other person, but also for the y- for the dynamic, for the relationship.Um, and I had that because if I am constantly checking emails, in this example, if I'm constantly checking emails even outside of hours, I actually am less effective during hours because I start to just get really exhausted mentally and not having that switch off time.So, if I lacked this boundary, I would, I know I would experience some kind of overwhelm or exhaustion which can lead to burnout.Uh, I become more reactive instead of mindful and considered and responsive.So, that's an example of, of why it's important.Um, if I didn't have this boundary, it would be really unclear expectations.If I kind of told myself, "Oh, they've emailed me so I have to email back and, and not actually have an open dialogue, an open conversation about, well, what do they expect or what does my contract say?"Uh, or, you know, "What do- do they know that I'm not gonna reply?"Because that is also a thing.Your boundaries teach other people, um, what to expect, but it also gives, in this case if I didn't have the boundary, it gives me unclear expectations, too.So this leads to mistrust within the dynamic, within relationship.It can lead to resentment.Be like, "Oh, they've emailed me again and now I have to reply."And notice how that's based on, that's, that's my action to own or not, and I get to go, "Well, I don't need to reply so it's okay if they've emailed."And then without notifications, wouldn't even know it.And-If I didn't, again, have that boundary, I would be stepping more into people pleasing again.I would be more like, "I have to reply.I have to show them what a good little employee I am.I have to show them what a good girl I am."You know, "I have to, I have to, I have to."And that, ladies also listen up especially, that undermines the integrity of your work, um, of your reputation, of how people see you.It undermines direction.So these are my biggest motivators in why I try to ensure that I don't lack boundaries in certain ways when it is important 'cause another thing to remember is boundaries are how we e- we get to be successful in relationship with each other.Boundaries, not control, but clearly communicated boundaries is really could just be called clearly communicated needs that you are taking care of.And when you don't have your boundaries clear with yourself or clearly communicated with, with whoever is relevant around you, that actually puts the onus on the other person to try and figure it out whether they ask you directly or not.So that email example, just 'cause we're running with it, that email example is I could reply to email.I could have the notifications on, and if someone happened to send me one that wasn't even necessarily time sensitive, but they just sent it outside of hours, and I saw that, I would then be, "I need to reply.Oh no, I need to reply."Or I could reply because I have that pleasing element, that people pleasing, uh, thing at play, and then the other person could be like, "Oh, do I need to reply now?"even though it's, I sent it after hours, but I'm already after hours, and, and they've just replied back.And it becomes this onus on the other person involved to try and figure out what your boundaries are if you are not being clear.And that is putting that energetic work, that mental load, and sometimes emotional load on the other person, which, um, A, isn't fair, but also B, never actually ends up with it being the relevant truth either.It never actually ends up with them being right about what your needs or boundaries are in this case.They're just guessing.They're trying their best.So then you still have something to clean up.And as a leader, if we then bring it up a tier to the leaders in the room, this is really important.So in a paper, uh, by Brown and Darling, um, they said that emotional, emotional boundary clarity is linked to higher resilience and leadership effectiveness.So if you're, if you're clear, if there is clarity around your emotional im- emotional boundaries, you are actually developing higher resilience and more effectiveness as a leader.And sometimes boundaries get the wrong perception of them.put it that way.They see it as, "Oh, you're being weak.You need to be able to handle this," you know?So if, if you have a team member who sets a boundary or a- like, asks for a need that they have with you, it's not always coming from you as the leader.Other people are gonna have their own.That doesn't mean they're not resilient.Sometimes it means that they've identified a need, and they are being clear with that in order to perform, in order to show up, in order to enjoy how they perform and show up also.Um, wellbeing science tells us that boundaries support autonomy.And autonomy is one of the 3 psychological needs in self-determination theory.So this, like, autonomy i- and self-determination theory is critical to, um, things like motivation, motivation and thriving in a role or in a position or in a workplace, in an org- organization.So boundaries sup- support autonomy, which is one of the 3 psych- 3 psychological needs.So again, are we teaching people to be independent and interdependent, not codependent, so that there's an element of autonomy so people, like, feel like they have a power over how they operate or what they need or whatever that is, which then actually makes people feel more motivated and helps them thr- thrive better?That feels like a pretty decent reason already.Um, and then there's also compassion fatigue research.So that's where I s- sort of spoke to putting the onus on, on someone else.So Figley writes that, um, this research shows that the boundary collapse or the collapse of boundaries is a major predictor of emotional exhaustion in care-taking or leadership roles.Imagine that.WeLike, that's exactly what we were talking about, right?So it can be this emotional exhaustion or this mental exhi- exhaustion, this fatigue that happens when there's this collapse of this scaffolding that helps us conn- or can help us connect better, can help, can help us in workplaces work better together.And leaders especially, everyone for different reasons, do struggle with it, but leaders especially struggle with it because of what they think leadership is.Leaders are oftenAnd look, they're often taught this, but this is why we are having these conversations, because I'm trying to make sure we learn differently, right?They're often taught this, they are often taught that they must choose between authoritative leadership or warm leadership, like being warm, having warmth.Um, they are oftenThey see assertiveness and empathy as 2 polar opposites, so they, they, it, they get confused.We get confused.If we think being assertive doesn't involve being empathetic, then we are no better than the billionaires we like to talk shit about and criticize for that exact reason, right?So, empathy and assertiveness can work well together.And if we think that showing authority means having no warmth or the other way around, right?Being a warm leader means you diminish your authority, then again, we have to look at w- why we separate these things and why they can'tWhy we think they can't co-exist, 'cause they certainly can, um, because boundaries are a form of compassion and kindness.They help teams to understand the playing field and where the goalposts are, so we have to be sure not to continue moving the goalpost, but they help teams and individuals do that.Um, they create a culture of emotion regulation or the ability to sort ofEmotional intelligence and predictability as best we can predict everything that we can't anyway.But they help to create these emotionally intelligent cultures and predictability in the sense of we know what to expect from each other, we know that there are processes, we know that there is a way of being.And this helps to reduce conflict down the path, um, it helps to reduce individuals or team members overfunctioning, stressed out, highly strung.And what this hap- what happens when you're a leader who exhibits and clarifies boundaries, as always, as with everything that we talk about, you are modeling wellbeing and you are also modeling, so you're encouraging others to do the same.And as a leader, we are all just big children, right?Um, we learn byLike children, right, learn a lot more from what's being modeled-Versus what's being said.It's just how they, it's just how, how we learn, it's how we operate.So as adults, that doesn't really change.We understand more about what's being said, sure, but we still learn more by what example is being set and what is being modeled than by what is being said.So, this is why it's really, really important to understand this, but also when you use boundaries, to be careful with how you use them at the same time so that you can still be in connection with each other.You're not building up a big fuck-off wall around you just to, just to say, "Well, I set the boundary, ha ha ha."Right?So this is where we get into the nuance as a leader, um, and this really, this actually gets to be quite simple, I think.I think, I think we try and overcomplicate things 'cause we think things are sometimes, sometimes they are, but sometimes more complicated w- than what they are.But really, like, as a leader, you justthe examples I'm about to give, you just need to make sure that you're not expecting other people in your team, no matter what rank they are in the hierarchy, you are not expecting other people in your team to do things that you are not willing to do and then using your leadership boundaries as an excuse for that.This is where it's really important as a leader to just be really careful, so you can't be like, "Well, I don't reply after 5:00 PM," but then there's, there's this really big deadline that your team is up against and you have members of your team working late, and then they need you to sign off on something, but then you're like, "Well, I don't reply after 5:00 PM," so then you all fail.You know, this is, I, I wish this was an extreme example, but I know in many cases it's just a, uh, just another day.So as a, as a leader, this is where the nuance is, is you can't just leave your team in the lurch.You still need to lead them, and that's just one example of what that looks like, right?Um, another is, is more of like a mental load boundary, um, as a leader saying something like, "That's not my responsibility," is notuseful if you are not helping your team structure set up, right?It's the same thing if you're just letting them do all the work and you're like, "Well, my boundary is that's not my responsibility."It is still up to you to help direct and guide them by allocating and delegating, but it, the, the buck still stops with you.The buck still stops with you.Uh, I'll say it again s- for the politicians in the room, the buck still stops with you.So, you know, there's a, there's sort of a balance there because you canthe flip side is you can be taking on everyone's stress and not be delegating.But when you have a team, that is your job to delegate, you still are overall responsible.So see how there's a balance?So there is a bit of extra work here, but once you kind of practice it, it becomes a lot easier.And it's the same when you're helping someone, um, uh, as a leader, inevitably you're more aware of, um, um, feelings or emotional things that might be going on for people, so there is a practice here that a lot of facilitators practice as well, it's the difference between holding space and absorbing feelings of the other person.See how that boundary is not cruel?It's not about keeping the other person out or away.It's actually more helpful if we are not absorbing the feelings of the other person because then we become reactive.If we are, you know, if someone's struggling and we're gu- we're supporting them through something, it is more helpful to, for them, if we do s- if we do hold the space.But that means we still have to kind of keep that boundary of, we can feel for them, we can be angry for them, whatever it is, but we can't absorb, or at least we can't try to absorb how they're feeling, all of their feelings and make them our own.That's not empathy anyway.But that's not helpful.For you or for them.And this comes down to psychological safety as well.Psychological safety in leadership, um, Amy Edmondson has some research around this, but basically, clarity and consistency in leadership behavior, including boundaries, can enhance trust and safety.So when you have clarity and consistency in your behavior as a leader, that's actually going to make people feel safer and feel more trust.This is what gets in the way.We have stories we tell.We have little stories we tell ourselves th- at about what it means to be a leader and, and what we n- then need to do with that.So, one of them is, "Well if I say no, I'm not being a good leader."Or, del- the delegation or lack of piece, right?We've spoken about this in previous episodes."I need to fix everything to prove I care."Uh, this comes up outside of workplaces too.This comes up in all kinds of relationships.So consider if you want to just jump in and fix everything for someone who is just sharing or just struggling and sharing, and you're like, "Oh, I need to fix it to prove, and, to prove that I care, or to show that I care.They need to know."Notice, I say this with love, notice that that becomes more about you then, instead of actually supporting the other person.And if you say, "Well no, it's 'cause it's about fixing."It's like, no it's your desire to fix.So, consider that.Really consider that.Um, another one that we see in all sorts, in workplaces, in businesses, like service providers too, um, "If I don't over deliver, people will leave."It's tough.'Cause then you end up drained and resentful and then you want to leave, right?So, it's, there's so many layers to this and these are all the stories we tell ourselves.Then there's, you know, there's gendered expectations, especially for, for women, for female leaders, for, um, marginalized, or leaders from marginalized groups where compassion is expected and assertiveness is penalized.What?where you're notThere's a really good song about this.Where you're not considered a boss if you're assertive, if you, especially for women and especially for leaders from marginalized groups, you're seen, you're seen as bitchy or rude.You are expected to bend over backwards and be compassionate in the face of anything that anyone says to you, in the face of any injustice thrown your way, verbally or otherwise.You need to continue being compassionate because then if you react, your reaction is seen as the problem, not the actual thing that you reacted to.Right?So, this is a challenging one.This gets in the way a lot of having boundaries or clarifying or communicating boundaries.Right?So, there's a whole bunch of reasons why blurry boundaries can show up, and there's also a whole bunch of misconceptions about what boundaries are, and then misuses of boundaries.Calling it boundaries but it's really something else.It's really, um, manipulation, control, white, white supremacy and privilege.Uh, it can be all of these things, misogyny.So, that's why we need to really just check ourselves, be like, "What is this really about?"And, the best way, is that the best way?The best way that you can start to set these boundaries or identify these boundaries or communicate these boundaries ispractice.I know that sucks as an answer, as a solution, but it's really the best way, is to practice.The other part I was going to say, or tossing up whether I would say this is the best way, 'cause this is also an important aspect, sometimes it's just communication.And it depends on the i- this one's gonna depend on the context, because you do not need to over-communicate yourself to anyone.You don't.I don't, I'm still learning this one too, don't worry, but you don't need to over-communicate yourself with anyone.Sometimes it's just a, "No thank you," right?Um, but sometimes, depending on the relationships, so probably more personal relationships in particular, would benefit from saying, "Well look, I really care about this, but I have to recognize what really is going to overwhelm me, and I already have all of this on my plate."Y- could be that, or it could be, "I need a little time to just think this one through before I can commit.I would love to, but I, I, I need to reflect on this, so let's revisit this after I've had a little time to reflect on all the information."And then it can also be, and I don't mean this in a fawning way, I don't mean a, "I can't do that, but let me do all these things."But if it's something that you, especially in your capacity in your role, if it's something that you don't recognize as something that is useful, or the best next step, or what you can do, you can say, "Well, that's not something I am able to do, but here's what I can do for you."If that is true, make it be true.Make it be true.Make it be true.So you can see there's a lot of nuance.I can't tell you exactly what to say, because that is such a blanket Band-Aid statement and solution that really serves no one.And then that's where it risks getting weaponized, like therapy speak itself, again, this isn't therapy, but therapy speak itself is getting weaponized, because it's seenIt's being used as something that says, "Oh look, I'm more emotionally advanced than you," when really it's just, it's just ways that we have to identify things.But we are still so human, so, so look into the nuance of this.Use what I've said and what I'm saying as thought provokers, not necessarily as exacts, right?Because you are also gonna have different boundaries for different people.You're going to have different boundaries for different people.This is just the way it is, um, and that is okay.And boundaries are go- like th- they can, they can and will change, even for the people.Even if there's nothing that the other person has done, they haven't broken a boundary, sometimes yours is just going to change.Be okay with it.Be okay with it.Really let it be okay for you in that way, but if it helps, when leaders are well-boundaried in healthy ways, they create teams who are interdependent, who can self-regulate within the unit and don't rely on constant validation, but they areinterdependent and take more initiative.Well-boundaried leaders create cultures, workplace or team cultures, or organization cultures, whatever your context, where consent and clarity are prioritized.They are the norm even.They are what comes first.Or in the case of clarity, what is rectified in case it's not clear.And they create sustainable leadership models and examples that aren't built on burnout.So, these are really good reasons if you are still wondering about why you'd go to the work, and it is work, it is work sometimes, why you would go to the work and the effort of working on boundaries, figuring it out, falling forward when you make mistakes.God, I wish I could remember who the-