Ep 171 - Burnout and masking: Neurodivergent, 'high-performing' women in leadership

Neurodivergent women in leadership face unique burnout challenges due to masking. Symptoms like emotional flatness, decision fatigue, & hyperawareness are often missed, leading to shame.  It's time to reframe leadership standards. Is performative leadership impacting your wellbeing?

It doesn’t always look like collapsing—it often looks like coping. In this episode, I unpack how burnout shows up subtly in high-functioning, emotional leaders—and what you can do to recover without losing your edge. 

Enjoying the podcast? Don’t forget to follow for more episodes packed with insights on growth, change, and living a more fulfilling life.
Got a thought or story to share? Reach out via Instagram at @j_.leigh , on LinkedIn at Jess Jasch, or https://j-leigh.com.au/ - I’d love to hear from you!

Interested in booking a free consult to discuss wellbeing consulting, or embodied leadership coaching for you or your team? Book your time here: https://calendly.com/jess-jasch/book-zoom-now

Transcript

Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Get Jasched. I'm your host, Jess Jasch.And today, we are going to be talking about burnout and masking, particularly for neurodivergent women, so I'mWhen I say neurodivergent, because I know neurodivergence, uh, actually covers a lot more than what I'm going to be addressing.So, I, I just want to addressSay that here and now.I'm going to say neurodivergence or I'm going to reference autism or ADHD specifically, simply because that is within my experience.And, as we know, or if you didn'tJust to be very clear, I'm not a therapist, so I'm not speaking to this from a medical model.I am going to reference research, um, especially when it comes to exclusion of, um, neurodivergence in the study groups and things like that.But I'm gonna reference research, but, but a lot of this is really based on my own experience.So, some of it may not fit you, because we know that, um, we know that each brain is different, even if you are autistic or you are ADHD.We know that, that doesn't mean that you and I have the same brains.Um, it just means that there can be similarities in, in, in the way that then becomes diagnosable and, and all of that.So, I'm gonna be speaking from my experience, just to share that, because when it comes to leadership, when it comes to women in leadership, um, it can be really challenging.It can be really, uh, disheartening, it was the word that was coming through.I was trying to find a different one.But it can be really disheartening, um, to feel the true weight of the disability that these things are.They are disabilities, um, and, and I think, for me, it's, it, it has taken some time to even acknowledge that it is a disability for me, that I feel the d-Let's, let's say that I feel the disabling effects of being an autistic and ADHD woman who, you know, by nature of these, um, cognitive development conditions, I have been this my whole life, but I didn't know I was this until very recently, until the last couple of years.I think it was 2 or so years ago, I wasIt was clarified and confirmed for me that that is what I am, that is how I experience the world.Um, but it has taken time to sort of even recognize how that can feel disabling, because I wasn't looking for it.I wasn't necessarily looking for the, "Oh, how, howI'm disabled and how, how can that be?"Like, I wasn't looking for the actual answers to that question.It was just a, "Okay, I have, I have this developmental condition.I was born with it."And, to be very clear, people are born with it.It's a genetic thing.It is not caused by vaccines.There is no proof.In fact, there is to the opposite, uh, that autism in particular is not caused by vaccines.And the research that did come out was actually pulled for being fraudulent.Um, the research that did come out that, that suggested otherwise was pulled for being f- fraudulent.So, just so we're really clear from the outset, this is not a condition that is caused by vaccines, because all of the research that we have so far indicates the opposite.It is a developmental condition that people are born with and, uh, and in part genetic.Just to be super clear about where we stand on that.But it is something that, um, again, in my experience, but people who are, are born with, and it is also something that women or girls were not included in any research or study groups in terms of understanding symptoms or experiences of either of these conditions.We were not included until very recently.I don't know the year off the top of my head, but I know it was very recent, literally recently, in the last approximately 10 years.So, to be very clear, that's not an exact, but it's, you know, that kind of recent, in the last decade or so, that they've only just started including the experience of autistic and ADHD girls and autistic and ADHD women in research.And because of the way research works, it has a, um, it has like a delayed onset ofbe- before it comes into mainstream awareness, um, from when the research is carried out to now.So it takes about- it can take about ten years for that delay to catch up of then it becoming more of that mainstream experience.So we're only really starting to.And with honestly, genuinely, um, thanks to social media, because people are ex- sharing their experience.There's a lot to be said for pop psychology, which we- we're going to avoid as best we can here.But, there's a lot to be said about the experience of being able to share your experience that then makes people go, "Oh, that's something that I just thought was a thing, like was normal."And, and people learn by self-inquiry, by sharing.This is how we've learned for, um, millennia.Right?So, it's, it's something that has taken, especially for us women and girls, taken a little bit to catch up on, which means that it- there's a lot about it that has gone, um, that has gone under, uh, under- under-researched obviously, but also underrepresented and under-noticed.So, my experience is, is I scoredI, I like to say, I, I ca- I say it this way, whether this is the appropriate or the correct way to refer to it, um, in psychology, um, the way I, as a patient, refer to it was I scored high marks, uh, across the autism/ADHD and then masking, um, assessments.And I scored high marks, particularly in masking.And that is something that we see, we generally see more of a prevalence in.Not exclusively, by any means, but we see more of a prevalence in women, which is why it's gone missed also, because f- for whatever reason, the conditioning that we have, um, you know, uh, women and girls are taught to just kind of suck things up and, and be quiet about it and deal with it.Um, for whatever reason, masking occurs in each person.I scored high marks in it, and it was at the point that, uh, in the year or 2 leading up to me actually confirming it, I had a couple of people who even said to me, and they didn't, they didn't mean anything negative by it, and, uh, but, you know, it was the experience.They, they even said to me, they're like, "Well, you don't seem autistic or ADHD, so you must not be it.It must be something else.It must just be"Uh, it was almost, it was, you know, it was dismissed, but, uh, it was almost like, it was like, "Well, nothing's actually going on for you, you know.You must just be tired or stressed," or whatever it was, right?And, and that led to so much more of a validation of when I did find out.But the bit I really wanna talk about, because this is really important when it comes to leadership, especially women in leadership, and especially high-performing women, or girls.I was also academically, I was like, a higher performing student, right?I was always in that space and quite self-led in my own, you know, like throughout schooling, studies, that it is easy to sort of go unnoticed because IYou know, squeaky wheel gets the most grease, right?So it's like, oh, I wasn't the squeaky wheel because I was just able to do it.And in a way, I thrived in those structured situations.But also, in the workforce, as a high-performing woman and as a, uh, in leadership, it has become more and more clear to me how much masking that was.And it's not to sayIt is not to say women cannot be leaders.That is the opposite of what I'm saying.But it's, it's the dismissing of women, in particular, or people who experience, uh, who, who are autistic and ADHD, but it's, the, it's the dismissing of women who are neurodivergent to say that they're not doing enough or that they have to perform optically at a certain level.So, what we're talking about here in this episode is really pulling back the curtain on how burnout particularly can uniquely manifest itself in high achieving, neurodivergent women, particularly in leadership and how that is so often missed.Um, it is misdiagnosed and misunderstood.I can't speak to that therapeutic or medical model personally myself because I am not in that field directly.But we do know that it's misdiagnosed and misunderstood, but we are talking about how it's uniquely experienced in, in those high achieving women and leaders.And hopefully with the intention of if you can have this awarenessIf you listen and have this awareness that whether it's for yourself or for someone that you work with or someone that you care about, you know, whether you work with them or they're one of your people, whatever it is, helping yourself or helping them recognize where y- you or they may be overfunctioning, masking, um, or, or dealing with that sort of shutdown and shame that can follow the, the burnout period, especially the autistic burnoutperiod.So it's, it's speaking to performative leadership in the attempt as we, as we often do here, in the attempt to undo the old model of that performative leadership and actually step into, I keep saying this, step into regenerative leadership, and that includes taking care of what that means for you, right?So this, this means that what is regenerative for one person is not necessarily regenerative for everyone.We know this, but we also forget this, especially in leadership contexts, especially in workplace contexts when we are in organizations or organizational settings where there's this standard and the rest is not taken into account.And I don't mean having, you know, umI'm missing the word, but I don't mean having certain conditions in place because it's like, "Oh, y- you know, oh, they need this.We don't expect as much."That's not what I'm talking about.I'm talking about how we actually recognize what a leader is and how we recognize real thriving regenerative leadership that actually supports everyone rather than just having this, thisIt seems random to me, this random, seemingly random benchmark that we call leadership that has been this benchmark that at some point was decided collectively, at some point a long time ago was decided collectively, "Oh, this is what leadership is."And then we just kind of fucked off and and didn't let that adjust along the way with us as we adjusted our understanding of leadership, especially thriving and regenerative leadership, right?So this comes from areas where we are speaking to productivity as that goal, as that, uh, benchmark, for example, uh, rather than recognizing where that c- capacity is misaligned or where, what is taken into account to have the optics of being productive isn't likeYou know, when w- what is take- not taken into account to have those optics of being productive when they are actually really important to demonstrate that skill and ability?So this is suspen- especially relevant for neurodivergent people, particularly women, right?And again, I say that because I'm speaking from my experience as a neurodivergent woman who has ADH- is ADHD, is autistic.I have sensory processor- sensory processing differences, um, sometimes that comes in the form of like auditory processing, um, speed in some cases, like where I understand what's being said but there's a landing that needs to be taken, whereas if I can read it, it's different.And that's not all the time.So it's things like that, that, um, that play a role, but it's also being aware ofThings that compound over time in order for someone to show up in the way that looks very neurotypical, and that is very, uh, accepted, which is also very aligned with neurotypical acceptance, rather than individual acceptance.So that is the sensory load.Um, I cannot work in environments, offices or otherwise, uh, that are consistently, like, you know, I can't spend 8 hours a day or more, like, in my home office I'll often spend longer than that.But I can't spend 8 hours a day under fluorescent lights, without natural light, and often even without airflow.There is a sensory load that goes on there, um, and- and that also comes in with sounds that aren't familiar to me or are outside of, I was going to say outside of my control, but that's not even it either.If I'm in an office, for example, there's other people tapping, like, typing away on a computer, which may or may not be an issue, but it depends on what else is going on.Whereas if I'm in environments that feel a bit softer, so the lighting plays a big role in that, it's a sensory load thing, so if the lighting feels a bit softer it's often easier for those things to not really be an issue.So, certain co-working environments I exist in feel really good because there's a, there's a, there's a softness, literally, to the lighting.There is natural lighting, there is an ease with the auditory environment that is there, that is created in this way.Whether they did this on purpose or not, for this reason, that is why it feels good.Um, but we're also sort of referencing burnout in the, in the area of masking.Uh, as I've mentioned, masking can be really challenging because it, it's not just, umThere's code switching, which, and- and I'm not, you know, an expert on code switching in every context and capacity, but from my own understanding and from my own experience of it, code switching is, it's based on who I'm talking to, and it's still always very me.But code switching can be how I speak to one person is different to how I speak to another, right?But masking is, even if I'm speaking to someone as me, there is still an element of being perceived a certain way, and being aware that you're being perceived, and having to put on a mask to feel like you, or feel like I, from my experience, that I am reallyIt- it's often unconscious, so it's hard to name, but sometimes it's putting on a mask, not just to play the role of leader or anything or, you know, to, you know, in, in appropriate ways, but it's this masking of, um, this unconscious masking of what other people think, or what I think other people need from me, or who I think other people need me to be.And there's so much that goes into masking, because it hides whether I'm struggling, because I'm high achieving, right?Quote, unquote, high achieving.So it hides whether I, whether I am struggling or whether I'm feeling stressed about something, and it builds up over time.And in my experience, masking kind of builds it up, and I kind ofIt's not that I'm not communicating clearly, but it's also means extra emphasis on needing to communicate clearly and early for me, because if something's a small issue, I feel like it's a big thing, it's too big to bring up.Like, it- it makes it too big to bring up.But then the challenge with that is that I keep masking and I keep just carrying on until the issue becomes so big that it's actually bigger than it should be, and should have been addressed earlier.Which is interesting, 'cause I do talk about self-awareness and mindfulness all the time, but maybe that's why it's so important to me, because these are the tools that I have found really useful or extra necessary because of this.Not just necessary because you're human and you're going to have experiences, and it's really helpful, but extra necessary because of this.And then, we're talking about burnout in, in the area of emotional labor that compounds over time.Uh, each person's experience is different.I have mentioned on the podcast previously that I often, um, lead by, lead through education.So, um, I've, I've mentioned it as, you know, I teach, I teach for independence, but maybe it's I teach for interdependence within team environments where it's, it's not just me that's the guru.I hate that word.You know, it's not just me that's the guru or the all-knowing or the, um, the only one with the information, and I hoard it so that everyone is needy and comes to me, and needs to come to me.The way I lead and the way I teach is to educate people.Not that the, so that they feel the pressure to become the expert on the matter.There is still that structure and framework, uh, scaffolding rather of support from me in that role, but they are then educated so then we are, you know, it's that tide raises all ships, right?It's they are then educated, so then it's not just coming to me with the same, the same, the same without learning.It's the emphasis on learning that helps us then all grow together with that scaffolding of support that I provide.The burnout from the emotional labor compounded over time is when there are environments and structures and systems in place that don't encourage that education.It's almost very much like they want the quick fix, um, but not the inner work for it.Again, in a previous episode with Susan Pickering, our favorite minister around here, we were talking about it's, it's transformation that's not just flicking a light switch, which is on the surface and like, "Oh, the light turns on, so I guess that's what we'll keep doing."It's recognizing that something is happening behind the wall, and then what is happening behind the wall.apply that to your own internal process.So burnout can happen in that way, especially for neurodivergents, when we are stuck in those, um, in those patterns.It can happen a lot of other ways, but again, in my experience, that is when I really get caught up in it.So, maybe that resonates.Part of the challenge in recognizing burnout, and I would also say this is similar or the same to how we recognize autistic or ADHD challenges, is we often recognize, um, those things when we base it on how they impact other people, or how other people around us experienceit.so it's about what it looks like, rather than acknowledging and recognizing it based on what it feels like for the person experiencing it too.So, these are some s- common symptoms just to sort of understand what it can feel like.Again, this is not the be-all and end-all of that experience, but just to give an idea, these are some common symptoms of what it can feel like for particularly high-performing neurodivergent women who are in leadership positions, who are killing it at lead- in their leadership positions, right?They are very good at it and so capable, but they also are not being recognized in the right ways, base- because w- the measurement is a neurotypical, often, often white male experience and perspective of leadership, which includes the experience around how they experience leadership.Not based on what women experience leadership as, not based on what people of color, Black and Brown people and Black and Brown women experience leadership as, or Indigenous women experience leadership as, or anyone that is not straight, white, and male.And I'm using that because that is the typical standard, not because I'm trying to bash anyone here, but that is the typical standard by which we measure, which i- means we measure leadership by their typical experience, which is so different to the rest of it, the rest of us.Which, the rest of us make up even more of a majority, but the majority of how we measure these experiences is based on one.So, the symptoms that can be common is-It can be somewhere between emotional flatness or emotional flooding, depending.Um, IIt's not that I swing between the 2 generally, unless I am in burnout, but sometimes my experience can be, like there's, there's no real telling of which one it's gonna go with.Sometimes it is just flatness.It's an apathy almost, uh, ofIt's, it's almost like, if I could liken it to the feeling and experience you have when something happens and, you know, maybe you're going through a grief, and y- you know what it is.You're like, "Cool."Like, not cool, but, "All right, here I am.I'm grieving.I guess I just have to go through the motions."And it's kind of like that feeling of going through the motions, except going through the motions is I don't really, you knowAt nighttime, trying to sit down and just have dinner and, and just do your usual something, watch something on TV.But that feeling of apathy, like,I don't feel like watching anything.I don't feel likeThere's nothing I feel like doing.I'm not interested in anything."That's how I experience it.It's this, "I'm not interested in anything.I know I'm going through the motions, but I kind of just need to go through the motions, because nothing feels, umNothing feels, you know?Nothing's eliciting anything in me."So that's the flatness, and then it's the flooding, which is the sort of the other side of the same coin, which is, "I'm feeling everything."It's this hyperempathy, uh, for me, it's this hyperempathy at times, and it's this, "I'm feeling everything and I'm, and I'm feeling"I'm not gonna say, "I'm feeling what other people are feeling," because when we think about conditions in the world, that's impossible.But it's this, "I'm feeling the grief of witnessing other people feeling or experiencing what they're feeling."Hopefully that translates well from my brain to you, but it's this awareness of, "Oh, I'm just feeling everything."And that comes through flooding of emotions, and it's not always sad.Sometimes it's anger.Uh,.Sometimes it's anger, which is really challenging to'Cause it can feel overwhelming, and I'm not talking about uncontrolled anger.I'm talking about just, "I know what this is.I know this is anger.I don't know what to do with it, and I'm not gonna lash out, but I alsoIt's consuming my, my, my thoughts."Like n- again, for me, it's not like the dangerous kind, but it's just the, "I'm caught up in stories."It's this flooding of"I'm caught up in stories that, that just keep making me feel angry or keep making me feel something."It's this flooding, this emotional flooding, right?So that is a symptom that is common in, uh, neurodivergent women, but again, com- uh, common in my experience when I experience burnout.Uh.There is, uh, similar to the emotional flatness, there's a bit of an internal shutdown that can happen.Uh, decisions become harder, s- even simple decisions.Um, it's, it's this almost anxiety of n- wanting to make the right decision, because if I don't, then I, then I have to deal with the change, whatever that change is, right?It's, um, tsk, it's not from a place of perfectionism, and I think for a long time I thought it was, in terms of trying to make the decisions.Like, ooh, I assumed that it was from this experience of has to be right and has to be perfect, and it's actually not that at all.It's a lot of the time for me when I am in that challenge, and it's not all the time.Sometimes I'm really f-cking good at making decisions.Actually, a lot of the time these days especially, uh, kind of these days especially, depending on the context, I'm really fucking good at making decisions.Um, I am, I would say that I'm also very good in, uh, particularly work contexts that I'm really good at making decisions.So, you know, it depends, but when I'm in those cycles of struggling to make decisions, it is because I am aware of if I, if II don't think you can get it wrong, but if I choose the decision that isn't actually the one I wanna go with, uh, or that I, um, not should, but isn't, you know, i- isn't actu-If I'm not actually sure, and I end up changing my mind, let's ca- let's say it that way, then it means that I have to change.And not me change, but like, I then have to deal with what that change in mind is, or deal with what that change in decision is.And, and that can feel like a lot of effort, because it's like when people change plans on us, the ADHD part, uh, the ADHD part is like sometimes like, "Oh, cool!"Or, uh, the autistic part is sometimes, "Oh, cool," 'cause my ADHD made that decision to go and socialize, but my autism can't cash that check.You know?So it's, it's sometimes it's that, and sometimes when plans are changed, it depends on how much effort has already gone into, into those plans, or decisions, right?And then if I've already put effort into those decisions, and then that decision is changed, it is really fucking hard, because it's this recognition of all this effort that is then, you know, in the black and white version, lost, effectively lost and wasted.And then it's like, "Oh, now I have to put more effort, and I didn't have those resources available."I always see change for me as like a big fucking ship, right?And it's like, "Oh, I can change, and I can move, change direction, absolutely, and sometimes I'll do it really quick.For whatever internal process reason has, has supported that."And sometimes if I'm like, "Oh, this is the direction, this is, this is it, this is the decision, this is what's happening," and then I'm hit with that change.It becomes that, that sigh, that, "Oh, okay.I know I'm capable of handling this."But at the same time, it t- it's like a slow-moving ship.A ship can't just change direction in a moment and be okay with it.It takes a lot of, of, of internal processes and energy, right?Uh, I think of the Titanic, because we've got the visual of that with the movie, if you're not a ship person.I'm not normally either.But we know that it takes a lot of energy and resources to then try and turn that ship into the new direction.So you can see, that's how it feels.So there's that internal shutdown, which is usually from overwhelm, um, and again, this part sort of goes to the emotional flatness as well, is like you can't feel joy.There's an apathy in a way of, um, I would almost put this with the emotional flatness where it's like, "Oh, I'm going through the motions.Nothing's actually making me feel anything."Like, th- there's no real enjoyment.It's fine.It's fine, but it's not real enjoyment,So, that's how I sort of experience it.Um, there can be extreme fatigue, but wi- like, 0 you know, not necessarily insomnia, but you know, like a wired but tired, um, I go through, depending on what's going on.Recently I've gone through, um, a sleep cycle of sorts that, where I'm tired, and I'm going to bed at a good time, not too early, right?But a good time.But I'll be exhausted and wide awake at like 1:00 or 2:00 or 3:00 AM in the morning.And recognizing that that is, you know, it's almost like, it's a delayed tell, like I, I sh- uh, it's, it's a obvious like, "Hey, if you haven't been paying attention, this is something that's going on."So, that can come up, which, you know, can impact how we feel.We know we need sleep.We absolutely need sleep.Sleep is the most important thing for anyone, uh, any human.Uh, sleep is the most important thing for, uh, for how we feel.For how we function.Sleep is, you know, there's others that are close, second and third for sure, but when it comes to generalized wellbeing, I'm talking about generalized wellbeing, I'm not talking about starvation or famine or war, but I am talking about generalized wellbeing.Sleep is the most important thing for the rest of it to work.So that can be challenging, um, burnout can also make us feel disconnected.II don't feel this, I don't experience this too much.Um, it just depends, you know.There's, it- it- it's more of a social thing rather than a disconnection from my people.It's more of a, I'm just careful about, like, I- I- I thrive better in one-on-one catch-ups, especially in this sort of phase, right?If I'm in burnout mode or if I'm sort of teetering, um, I get a lot more out of the one-on-one catch-ups with my people rather than, you know, group things or events, that kind of thing.So, so there can be different ways that different people, um, experience that.And it can then be this hyperawareness, which i- is not, is, is almost exacerbating the problem of burnout and what leads to burnout, but it can also be this hyperawareness of other people's needs, which is, you know, empathy, compassion, being a human, being a caring human being to other people, being in community as humans.All important, right?But it's this hyperawareness of others' needs, but feeling also equally, equally unable to meet your own.It's this weird paradox that happens.It's, "I don't know how to take care of this, but I can take care of you."Or it's that, I was gonna say impulsive, but it's really compulsive urge toIt's like, oh, uh, 1, one really, you know, benign, obviously, like a- an example is, um, if you're struggling with money and then you get money in, and the first compulsive feeling you have is to spend it on other people rather than, you know, maybe just keeping it for yourself to take care of your needs.Like, once you, whatever that is, right?So that's just a- a- an, kind of a visual, if that's helpful, of what that can feel like.But in different ways as well.It can be all of these things.So it's, it's this burnout that then you can kind of imagine not all of that is visible from the outside.Um, and when in leadership, it becomes really challenging because, um, women especially have been taught to belittle our- our own experiences.Like, "Oh, it's fine.I should just, uh, get over it."So, like, a year ago, I had surgery for endometriosis, and I'm fine, right?I never had that kind of surgery before, and I wasn't, you know, I was very well taken care of medically by our medicalLike, fucking nurses are God's gift to all of us.Um, please take care of nurses, be kind to your nurses.But I was, I was taken care of well medically, but at the same time, I didn't, I wasn't really set up to understand what to expect, and I learnt that as I was going on, because this was my autistic experience, which I didn't, umI knew I was at that point, but I didn't really know to, I didn't really know to know to ask.So, what I thought was going to be maybe a 2week, you know, intense part, and then slowly I'd be able to slowly get back to, um, more physical things.Not i- not immediately, but slowly be able to sort of get more, like, into moving my body again and feeling okay, turned intoIt was really a 12-week experience overall.Like obviously, there was a point that it had improved, but you know, like, um, I learned in week 3 that it was actually meant to be 6 weeks.That I was not meant to really do- like use my core muscles even in like a yoga practice or even- 'cause that would stretch and potentially stretch the sutures, which would weaken them and potentially create other issues, um, or room for other issues to- to happen.So, um, that was a longer time than I had expected, and because I wasn't able to regulate myself in the ways that I'm used to, which is through movement, uh, I struggled.Um, there was a part of me that was really glad to be able to curl up on the couch and just watch the Olympics and be under a blanket.Thank God it was winter here so I was kind of, you know, cozy and comfortable, as comfortable as I could be.But there was the other part of me experiencing- um, feeling just nauseous, um, because I had a couple of days of, uh, Endone and- and that made me feel sick even a week or 2 after finishing that, just a couple of days, um, so, you know, that tells you a lot about me and how much I don't gel well with certain substances.Um, I responded badly to the anesthesia and, um, my blood pressure plummeted when I was in hospital, but the weeks after I was just sad.I was so sad.And it was this experience of a different kind of burnout because I wasn't able to take care of my needs in the same way.So that is all to say sometimes it is really challenging to, um, to- to sort of be in these places and that's when masking can come in.So burnout's not always obvious, right?But that's where masking can come in, um, and they kind of go hand in hand because masking can exacerbate or allow room for burnout to thrive unchecked until it's like that big massive deal that we can't ignore, but usually, as I mentioned earlier, it's like by that stage it's too late.Not too late, it's- it's just- it's bigger than it needed to be.Um, and masking is kind of defined, like there's, you know, there's probably more medical definitions of this, but I define masking as like a performance of what's acceptable behavior but at the cost of- of myself.So, um, I can be super aware of things that I need, but it also includes over-preparing, uh, it's almost like I- I need to over-prepare because that's part of my experience, um, it's mimicking neurotypical behavior or mimicking the p- the behavior of the people around me.Um, unintentionally and- and not meant with malice in any way, but it's this mimicry that can happen of matching their energy, which can be useful but is also not always useful.Who knew?Um, and all of that means suppressing my own sensory needs or emotional cues.So like, that can be because I'm distracted basically, or my awareness is distracted, my cues of this is too much sensory overwhelm or this is that can get suppressed or just go unnoticed, and over time that's why it leads to burnout.So, you know, it's- it's hard because the more successful you are at masking, the longer it takes for burnout to be noticed or taken seriously, and that means taken seriously by yourself but then taken seriously by others, because you'll remember at the beginning I did say that even me- the concept of me being autistic or ADHD, not that these other people were, um, medical professionals either, but you know, like, y- you-you c- you care about the people around you and- and how they see you and what they- what they recognize in you and- and the acknowledgement, right?But it- it was then hard because I was so good at masking, and I still am, you know, like this- it's- it's not just a- it's solved now, it's not that it's solved at all but, um, because I was so good at masking and then it became too loud to ignore and then I found out, it then became more of a challenge to communicate thosechallenges with the people around me because they certainly weren't able- you know, they weren't able to feel what I was feeling and they didn't see it because I was so good at masking it.So I know I did, like- oh, I was gonna say, "I know I did this to myself," but it's just the experience we have and there's a lot of societal, um, uh, reasons that we respond this way.So th- that is- that is the experience and that is the- the- the masking and burnout connection, right?And we know that there is also, um, you know, like there's- there's certainly some well-being science, um, research and theories that can help support, but it's also important to notice- note that even in well-being research, even in po- positive psychology research, a lot of-The research and theories and models have been done,like performed on and created based on neurotypical experiences, and that is just a really important thing to note.It's- it's an, uh, it's a literature critique but it's not a criticism because of course, based on, especially based on when some of this rese- research was done, what was normalized is what- what was, right?But we need to actually address that and acknowledge that more, and I- and I believe it is being acknowledged more.But when we talk about, uh, the experience of, um, of neurodivergent people, it doesLike our version, for example, of flourishing, which is an element of positive psychology, our version of flourishing is not necessarily going to match what the research or the model suggests that it should, right?Because we have different experiences and- and tells of what fl- well, what- what flourishing looks like for us.Um, but, you know, therein general aspects, there are theories that can sort of support this example, um, so self-determination theory suggests that the lack of autonomy and authenticity contributes to diminished well-being, and weand based on everything I've shared in my experience but also what we know, you know, uh, neurodivergent people, especially with autism and ADHD in my experience, we need au- autonomy and authenticity in order to thrive.We need autonomy.Sometimes it's autonomy around our time and how our day starts or, um, where our day is or being able to respond in real time based on what we need.So, uh, if there is, for example, if, you know, it'sIf there's someone who works hybrid and they have a great setup at home and they, you know, they have an okay setup at work but if for whatever reason they are feeling overloaded, um, sensory-wise, for whatever reason, work or otherwise, there needs to be the autonomy.Like, they thrive better and have more well-being when they have the autonomy to wake up on a day that maybe they're meant to be in the office and choose to adjust that, whether that's work from home or come in only for that meeting and then work from home or whatever that is, right?That will look different, but in every context.But that's what I mean by autonomy, the autonomy to adjust to our needs as we need them rather than mask over them continually just because of what is expected, which I know is going to, um, blow up the concepts of what a thriving workplace looks like for some people, but I can tell you that when you adjust yourwhen you createwhen you- when you have neurodivergent accommodations as the norm within your workplace, everyone thrives, even neurotypical people.When you have neurotypical accommodations as the norm in your workplace, only the neurotypical people thrive.So, that is something to be aware of.But yeah, self-determination theory can support that as a concept, um, in how having a lack of autonomy and au- authenticity does contribute to a, uh, diminished experience of well-being in people.Um, role strain theory is- is another one where, you know, a dr- a- a known driver of chronic stressis the dissonance between external expectations and internal reality.So that dissonance between what is expected from someone and what they're actually feeling, and then how they have to show up still.So that c- that, you know, kind of supports this, this concept, and there's possibly more we could look into that for.But there is, there are theories behind this, um, and there's even research that goes into how emotional invalidationbeing invalidated emotionally, or lack of validation even, if it's not invalidation, but a lack of validation emotionally is linked to depression and burnout.So it's, it's not exclusively to neurodivergent people, but it's just, I'm just suggesting that we experience it in more acute ways because it's not recognized as much.And, you know, then there's the shame and, and everyone's exposed to the risk of shame, right?But then there's the shame because the burnout isn't physical.It's not obvious.So it's, it's this feeling of having to convince people.It's this feeling of, "I should be able to do this," or, "Everyone else is managing.Why can't I?"Like, "I should be able to manage.I should, I should.Uh, why do I need these accommodations than others, like more than others?"And it's hard, and this is, this is where I really started to experience the recognition of, oh, this is where it's actually disabling for me.This is where I am actually ex- experiencing the disability, again because these- this is a disability, um, in the current world and structure that we live in.It is a disability.So it's, I started to experience it as a, "Oh, I literally can't make that choice that everyone else can just make.I can't experience that in the way that everyone else.So I have to make things work in a different way," which is great in a way, but it's alsoIt feels disabling sometimes, because it's like, "Oh, I don't have the same options that everyone else has in this particular way."And, and in that way it was, you know, a lot of, "Why do I need more rest or help or space than others?Or why do I need a different work setup than others?Why do I need different to others to the point where that option isn't, is not a val- a, a valid option for me?"So there can be shame that comes with that if you don't catch it, or there can be shame that you might have to dig to recognize and acknowledge as well.So, you know, it's it makes it hard, and it makes itIt, it's also very common also for women who are usually praised for high standards, for their leadership, for being the one that is really good at fixing or solving everything.I have, I have mentioned this, again, in a previous episode, but we, wh- uh, when women in particular, but when women are seen as just being the high achievers, their need for support is often more easily dismissed or unacknowledged, because there's just this pattern of going, "Well, you always figure it out.You always manage this," without actually considering the resilience it takes or has taken for them to mentally show up the way they have already.Um, so thatOh, maybe that was just a bit of a, "Here's all the problems," but it, it's from the intention of, this is what it can feel like, and if that is what you are experiencing, that is so super valid, especially in leadership.But if you are not a woman in leadership — and that's okay if you're not, you are still welcome here — but if you're not a woman in leadership, but you have listened to this, hopefully it's been an educational piece for you.Uh, hopefully it's been an educational, um, listen for you, where you'Cause you get to be part of that solution too.It's not just, this is the other challenge.It's not just on people who are experiencing the challenge.It is, it is up to everyone to, for us to reframe what those standards of leadership and what that looks like is.Because if we could recognize more of that resilience that is already inherent, that may not be what the Instagram version of it, of resilience is, right, the very optical, visual version of resilience.If we can recognize resilience more in the ways it actually exists, then there is so much value.I'm speaking to businesses here that care about the bottom line, and you know, there is so much value for highlighting that within your teams.That's not allI was gonna say, that's all I'm saying.That's not all I'm saying, but think about it and consider it, um, because we, weWe need to break the pattern, and it cannot just be on the high-achieving neurodivergent leaders that you have or the female leaders that you have to break the pattern, because they're existing in an ecosystem that just doesn't fit for them as it is, so it's hard to break the pattern.They're already doing so much work.So help, help.Because it's not going to take away from you, is also one of the most important things that anyone else who doesn't fall into the category of the, the experience I've been sharing.Anyone else, it is not going to take a- a- away anything from you.If anything, it is going to allow you to thrive more, because a rising tide lifts all ships.So I could invite listeners who are female, neurodivergent, high, high-achieving, whatever it is.I could invite you into that self-reflection of, you know, where do you override your body or your needs for the sake of others?Or what signs of burnout have you dismissed as personality traits?Um, I, I could invite you to do that, and maybe you'd like to, but I also use this as an opportunity, as an educational opportunity to invite people that, who, who don't, who aren't in those categories, in that demographic, invite you, lovingly and kindly invite you into being a part of the solution as well.Um, because it is not just up to the people that experience it.It is up to all of us that contribute to the ecosystem in which we all exist as well.So, hope- I was gonna say, take, take with you what you will.Hopefully, that's something really useful and a lot, because it's a really important consideration and it impacts a lot more people than we think.And it's not just because it's being over-diagnosed.It's because we're finally recognizing more of what those experiences as symptoms are that tell us, that inform us that the people are neurodivergent in different ways, and we're able to provide more support.So if we can, like, h- hurry up, not hurry up, but quicken the, the distance between, like the length of time between the research that tells us this, it's finally catching up, but then actually it being applied in, in real life, if we can shorten that timeframe by responding quicker, then everyone does better for it.So it's been a, it's been a long one, but it's an important conversation.Hopefully it's been helpful.I would love to hear, uh, what you got out of it.And if you feel like someone would benefit from this episode, whether they are neurodivergent, woman, high-achieving or not, if they are a leader, if they are a decision-maker, if they're male or otherwise, if they are n- neurotypical but could just get value out of understanding a little bit more, even if it's just from my experience and my perspective, which is not the wholeexperience or per- perspective by any means, if you know of someone who could get something out of it, please share it with them.Please share it with them, because the more we share, the more we talk about things, the more we can address them, which is the whole point of it.I often used to ask, um, "What's the fucking point?"I th- I thought it would be the title of my first book, to be honest.Um, but this is the point, sharing so that we can all learn and, and know a little bit better, so we can do a little bit better.Um, but that's all I have for you for this episode.Thank you for listening in.I'm excited for you to hear next week's episode.It's, it's more of me sharing and exploring these topics around leadership, um, and around how we are more well in leadership and do better leadership from this wellbeing perspective.So thanks for listening.I'll see you next week.