Ep 170 - How faith ministry can be used for education and empowerment: Susan Pickering takes us to real church

Leadership isn’t linear - and getting it “wrong” is part of the path, including how we learn and shift our understanding of what has always been 'how we've taught it'. 

In this episode, I talk with Susan Pickering about her experience as a Uniting Church Minister, where she navigated exploring her own understanding of theology, how some things have been taught more to control than to inspire and empower, how she addressed bigotry and ministered in support of equal rights, and what she's doing about it in her work. It’s honest, real, and full of growth.

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Transcript

Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Get Jasched. Today, I am so fortunate to be joined by Susan Pickering.Susan has a background in counseling with many years supporting people living with disability and mental health challenges, has served as an ordained minister in the Uniting Church, and is now a yoga and meditation teacher and qualified celebrant helping people in times of grief, in funeral and memorial services, and soon to be offering civil wedding services.So, she truly does all of life's milestones.And I'm so grateful to have you here, Susan.Thank you so much for joining me.Thanks for having me.Mm-hmm, my pleasure.So I said, I'm just gonna own it, I said to you before we started recording, um, I was going to start with a bad joke becauseAnd I knew what the joke, the, the, the badness of it was.But, um, was gonna say, I have a confession to make, which is a play on the Church, but the confession was that I grew up Catholic, not in the, in other Christianity sects.But the joke is knowing that, well, I'm pretty sure, confession isn't really a thing that happens in, in the UnitingI was trying to find the right word.The Uniting Church sect of Christianity.Is that right?Is that a Catholic thing?It's, well, in the Catholic tradition, it's a sacrament.Ah.And whereas in the Protestant churches, we have confession, but it's more of a corporate confession.Oh.So the people don't have to rock up and confess their sins.Mm-hmm.But there's usually a prayer of confession.Right.So, my, my joke was more around just, I'm gonna just own it right here and now.I grew up Catholic, so I have a certain, umI, uh, y- you know, I respect faith and spirituality.But I have a certain, um, sarcasm towards Catholicism particularly.So, you know, we show up in Cath- like, in Catholicism for the shame and the guilt andWhereas it sounds like, you know, there's a lot of love in, in the way that you, um, you carried out your ministry as well.So, I wanted to start with that, your experience as a minister.What, what led you to it?How long were you practicing?Tell us.Well, there, there, that's the interesting thing.So you were brought up in the Church-Kind of, yeah.And I was- I wasn't.And when I became a Christian, my mum's response was, "What do you mean a bloody Christian, Susan?""Remember, it's not everybody's cup of tea."Mm.And I was quite upset 'cause I thought I'd make a good Buddhist.Oh.But it was, it was definitely that searching for faith.And soAnd I'll quite unashamedly say I was a bit disappointed when I ended up as a Christian.Really?So, even though you were disappointed, you still made the decision.What was, wha- what was the decision then?Why, why that decision?It wasIt just, it just connected.Mm-hmm.The sort of like this, this movement, this Jesus movement just connected with me, this livingYou see, I saw Buddhism as a way of living.Yeah.And Christianity, I guess, as a religion.Mm, okay.But what I've, what I've realized is, actually, it's about a way of living.Mm-hmm.And as for ending up as a minister, IF- God's got a sense of humor.UmIt was a definite call.Mm.I gave up my job with Queensland Government, and- Wow.and went back to, you knowI used to joke about, you know, "I'm going to Jesus College now."Um, and, you know, I've often joked about, "I left one circus to go to another."It'sSo it- it was, it was a call, and the call never leaves you.So even though I'm not working in the Church at the minute, there's still this sense of call to engage.Mm.So, I was ordained in 2009, so I went into my first placement at, in 2008.So what's that?Not very good at maths.8, 917 years ago.17 years, yeah, yeah.SoAnd that was after three and a half, 4 years formation- Wow.in college, so yeah, it wasIt's a bit of a journey I didn't plan.Mm-hmm.Well, you also f- it's, it's interesting 'cause you didn't plan to land in Christianity, but you did pick one of the few that accepts women- Yeah.in ministry as well.Um, and while, while our family isI have Irish Catholic roots, so like in, in heritage, there isIt's a bit, um, intertwined and, and entangled in there.But my family itself, we weren't heavily in the Church, but, you know, we went to Catholic schools and all of that.So, I understand what you mean about the feeling of it doesn't l- it doesn't leave you.There's still an elementI just personally r- rail against the institution of it, but there's still an element of, um, appreciation for it.And like you said, it's the way of being, it's the way of life, of, um, you know, whatWith all the stories of Jesus, what was Jesus like, you know?Like, how did he behave?How did the people around him, Mary Magdalene, all of these people around him carry out their lives in their behaviors, in, you know, in their acceptance of others?So, I can see how it, in a wayI- I wasn't say- like, I'm not gonna say it makes sense 'cause I wouldn't know, but I can see how whenYou did land in the one that accepts women.Yeah, yeah.Like, there was a purpose there.And if somebody had told me 20, 22 years ago, "You're gonna end up as an ordained minister," I would've laughed.I would've seriously laughed.It's like, I was quite happy going to church.I had lots of questions becauseI guess, my field of work and the fact that inclusivity is so important to me- Mm-hmm.I really struggled with some of the homophobic rhetoric that's in the Church.Um, and it's like, "Oh."then you learn, you know, the word he- homosexual only landed in the Scriptures in 1946.You know, so we've got this ancient document- Yes.but it's at the hands of translators.Sorry, I'm taking my boots off.No, that's fine.I'm just, I'm so engaged.I just need you to keep taking me to church.This is great.Tell me more.So, we've got like, thisWe've got these ancient texts that were written in ancient Hebrew and then Koine Greek, which is ancient Greek.Mm-hmm.And it wasI mean, obviously we're grateful for translators, but they've done the best that they can.But it leads us down a particular path.You know, Jesus wasn't a Christian.He was a Palestinian Jew.You know?And, and - He didn't have a copy of the Gospels.and a brown, potentially Black man also.Absolutely.Not, not a white man at all.NotThis is my favorite conversation by far, I think.And-if we actually also go back to the Scriptures, he was also a political refugee- Yeah.as a child.Seeking as- He was a political refugee.He flipped tables.Yep.Like, thereYou would know the reference better than I do.I just know the story of he flipped tables.He went in and went, "Not this shit," and flipped it, and said, "No."SoAbsolutely.And, and look, it's like the, when he goesSo sorry, I might flip about a bit.Just pull me back.All right.No, that's fine.Um, the triumphal entry into Jerusalem- Mm-hmm.on Palm Sunday.There's no palms in the Scriptures.We've created that.Um, but what people don't realize, 'cause it's not in the Bible, is on the other side of the city, there was a military procession, because all of these really, these Jewish festivals, there was a risk of revolt.So the empire wanted to keep, you know, keep control.So, I've, when I've preached on this, I've said, "So imagine, you've got war horses and leather-clad soldiers with the jangling of weapons going through one side of the city."Mm-hmm.And then there's Jesus on a donkey, and for me, is flicking the finger to the empire and saying, "No."Yeah.I mean, some things never change, I guess.It'sthis is so refreshing, and it's just like, this conversation is for the podcast, obviously.Hi, everyone listening, but I'm in, getting, already, like 5 minutes in, I'm getting so much out of this, because it's, it's these important conversations we need to have that are outside of the dogma of the traditional Church views.And, and, and I, again, I, I led with I grew up in, in the, like in Catholic schools, just because it means that I don't, or I'm not always aware of like where that doesn't cross over to Christianity.You know, like other forms of Christianity.So correct me whenever I mistake that.But the traditional Church views, as you said, are quite, um, bigoted, or- In lots of, in lots of spaces, yeah.or exclusive in the worst ways, if we wanna use a gentler word that is stillLet's not.But like, it's-it's quite excluding to a lot of people that seem, from what we understand and what you've already shared just e- even in that short time, that seem different to what the teachings of Jesus actually were.Yeah.I mean, look.If weA- again, context is just so important.You know, the reality is, the religion Christianity- Mm-hmm.is down to Paul.Mm-hmm.You know, Paul's letters were written before the Gospels.Mm-hmm.Um, they reckon Paul was probably a contemporary of Jesus, but never actually met.And so when we look atI like to refer to the stories of, the way Jesus lived, as a Jesus movement.Mm-hmm.He was a movement.He didn't say, "You've got to give up this.You've got to do"You know, "If you're swearing, you can't be a, you can't follow me."Of course.There was no pre-re, there was no prerequisites.It was as simple as, "Follow me.Live like me."And it was radically inclusive.Mm-hmm.And with the institutional Church, and let's bear in mind, until the empire took on and legalized Christianity, it wasn't safe.People literally did go to the cross.Which, you, you know, I always, I always laugh 'cause I've never worn a cross as jewelry.I've worn one when I've been preaching.Yeah.But if you think about what it was, it's like wearing a, sort of like a little electric chair around your neck.'Cause it's a symbol of execution.It was the most barbaric form of execution.And- A- possibly s- it's one of them still.Like, it's, it's not-um, like yeah.Crucifixion is not gentle.It's not- It's not quick.Nope.And, and by all accounts, you know, I've seen moviesNo.But like, but by all accounts, Jesus' crucifixion as well, Jesus' death was not quick.It was not-um, void of suffering.It was not void of pain, and in- intentionally inflicted pain as well.And, and 'cause it's also, like I said, sorry for flipping around, you know- It's okay.that I can'tI don't hold onto "Jesus died for my sins."Hmm.You know, I just think that's so ego, personal.You know, Jesus was a political threat.He's living life non-violently.He was a political threat, and he had to be done away with.Yeah.He was a radical in their eyes.He- Yeah.because he preached something, and he did preach.He, like you said, he said, "Live the way I do.I'm leading by example.Try this."Um, but he, he preached a way that was different to the, the authority at the time, and the Romans at the time, and we, and we do know that the Roman Empire liked things the way they liked them and only that.Um, but it's, it's interesting how that plays out in today of, like you said, how, how, umAnd this isn't blamingFor me, it's not blaming, like, individuals.It's, it's if there's a blame as such, but it's just more a discussion, but if there's a blame as such, it's really about the institution of the Church over the centuries and over the millennia as well.But it's, it's interesting how that has shifted into such a individualistic mindset of like'Cause I've never resonated with, "He died for our sins," 'cause I'mI don't know, maybe it's my autistic mind taking everything literally and being like, "What do you mean?"Yeah.That doesn't make sense to me.Like, even on a spiritual level, it doesn't make sense to me, but it's also, it's not about me.It's a b- you, likeBecause what, we're also told that God will forgive us for everything, so how does, you know, heaven and hell and the threat of hell play into that too?So, there's a lot of questions, obviously, I have personally about how that works, but it's such an individualistic approach that we have these days that, that more and more, especially in the political atmosphere these days, we're seeing people almost hold over, uh, other people's heads.Yeah, and, and look, it, it was about living in community.Hmm.It's radical community, and, and, and again- Mm-hmm.I'm not afraid to say on here, I've preached it, you know, the Church was about social control.Yeah.And, you know, and the, the Catholic Church in particular have, have made a lot of money out of our sin.Haven't they just?You know, and, uh, the Protestant Church really is just that break away from the Catholic Church, and-you know, there's going to be schism, after schism, after schism because, uh, we, we're trying to content God.We create God in our image, and I sometimes think, you know, is, is God not just the name we've given to mystery?Yeah.You know, we, we are all part of this bigger safeguard.You think about like the, the fish in the ocean.They're in the safeguard of the ocean.And for me, I believe we're in the safeguard of God.Hmm.And if God is only as big as my theology, and your theology, we're really screwed.Yeah, aren't we?We're, w- we're dooms.But like, you know, like you said, we've, we've created God in our image.Mm-hmm.But isn't, isn't the, the wording, isn't the line like, w- we are created from God's image?So, it's like wa- you know, God or u- un- universe for people who have an allergy the word, to the word God as well, um, it'sWe are created in that image of, you know, in, in more spiritual, like the Buddhist sort of text it states- Yeah.we are the universe experiencing ourselves.So, it's, it's how can we create theLike, we have done this, but how can we re-create God in our image when we're created from God's image?Well, and, and I think, you know, again, we've put God in a, a man box.Yeah.You know?If, if you ask people, "What, what do you think this Christian God looks like?"A lot of people will have this old bloke with big, long beards, you know?White dude, yeah.But God i- for me, God is the very air we breathe.Hmm.Because God is life-giving.Yeah.And then, and then so if we take that God created everything, you start seeing that mutual dance of breath.So you know, we breathe in the oxygen from the trees, and then we give back what the trees need.Yeah.We're in this constant mutual dance with creation.Mm-hmm.But we've, we've really ans- we've made it really about allIt's about humanity, but it's actually about the whole of creation.We, too, are created.Yeah.And, and just to bring back that sort of like the need for the feminine, when we go back to that, I shared with you when we first met, when we go back to that beginning, ruah, the Hebrew for spirit or breath, is feminine.It's grammatically feminine.Mm.So there's this masculine and feminine energy, you know?And in God, that energy is perfectly in balance.Mm-hmm.Um, so you know, the spirit is the one that sort of like hovers over, giving life that breath.So for me, that imagery of God is far more, oh, beautiful and open to mystery than old bloke with a big beard.Right.You know, our f- this faith tradition, like many faith traditions, has been handed over to the patriarchy and contains tu- continues to be very patriarchal.Hmm.And, you know, as you go through the scriptures, you've got the spirit is feminine in the Hebrew.By the time it gets to Greek, it's neuter.So it's neither feminine nor masculine.By the time it gets into the hands of the church fathers, it becomes masculine.Yeah, because why not?Exactly, so we lose this whole f- We lose the feminine energy of God, and we need both masculine and feminine energy- Mm-hmm.in balance.So yeah, it's just thehumanity, we've got this bit of superiority.God created us.Hmm.But God created everything.If we believe in that story of creation, and I don't mean literally.If we believe in that story of creation- It didn't happen in 7 days?What do you mean?Well, some people still hold onto it did.I think God itself led to that evolution of creation, yes.Yeah.Hmm.And, and again, if we go back to these ancient texts, what we have is an ancient community- Mm-hmm.trying to explain the unexplainable, trying to explain the mystery.Yeah.And there's different semantics from that time, too, even to a couple of hundred years after.You know, there's differentWords sort of start to take on their own meaning, or different meanings, or different understandings, or usages of the word as well.Mm.So it's so, um, it's soI was gonna say so challenging.It's also so easy to then, you know, create it to your will, as, as has happened, um, but it's also so challenging to really, like you said, you know, to really grasps, grasp something when maybe there weren't really words for it.There were just analogies and, um, you know, uh, uh things that represent what they experienced or thought they experienced, or saw, or felt, or everything that they're like, "Well, it was like this because this is the closest thing I've got."And, and our English is really quite restricted because there'sSo the Elohim is really quite plural, but it's used for God.Hmm.And then there's Yahweh.Yeah.And so there's all of these different names, and you find it in the Hebrew, but we have one word, God.Mm-hmm.Yeah.And it's like so in the Greek there's a, there's a passage where Jesus says to Peter, "Will you love my shape?"And Peter's like, "Yep."He asks again, "Will you love my shape?""Yep."And then it's like, "Ugh, will you love my shape?I've told you already."Mm-hmm.But in the Greek, it's, it's, um, it's that highest form of love.And the Greek's- Hmm.gone out of my head now, menopause brain.But you can't just command Greek to your heart.You can't just command.Like - It, it starts off at the, umOh, I can see the word agape.Agape.Oh, yes.Right, right.Yeah.So it's like absolute love.Mm-hmm.But Peter responds with phileo, which is a brotherly love.Yeah.And so Jesus is saying, "Will you agape?"And Peter's going, "Yeah, I'll phileo."And so yeah, and Jesus goes, "Will you phileo?"So we lose all of that, those little nuances throughout the scriptures, and, and I guess when I was at theological college, I'm sort of like going, "Why, why don't I know any of this?"Yeah."I've been going to church.How come I've not heard any of this?"And so my commitment when I came out of theological college wasBreak down this language, 'cause it, we've got jargon, the same as every other profession, and teach people, and crack open- Hmm.these little kernels of truth.Mm-hmm.So again, we've got, "The Bible is fact."Well, no, but within it is a kernel of truth- Yeah.if we dare to grapple with it.Mm-hmm.That leads perfectly on to my next question because as, uh, if, for anyone listening or watching, obviously -this conversation differs from the traditional church views, and, and this is very much, you know, like, what I say at least, it's very much my, my own opinion, and I know that, that religion itself is, is so up for debate in general.But, you know, your views and, and values and understanding of this, which feels deeper to me than the traditional church, but it does differ a lot.So how did you stay true to that for yourself and for your congregation?I guess I've probably got into a fair bit of strife over the years.And, and I'm not, as my mum would, you know, pointed out, you're not everybody's cup of tea.Hmm.Um, but for me, sticking firm with that sort of, like, this is about inclusion, this is about setting God, uh, you know, taking the fence down, because I think we, we think we're boxing God in, but actually what we do is we fence ourselves in- Yeah.and keep everybody out.And so I've, I've been, throughout my ministry, I've continued with the commitment to social justice, to speaking against, you knowBecause again, politics and religion get mixed up, and it's like, you know, religion's not political.It, it, you know, Christianity is a politic because it's a way of being in the world.Yeah.And so I've spoken out.You know, I've, I've been to, I've gone to the rallies, not so much these days, but I've been to the rallies.I've supported refugees and people seeking asylum, and I've, you know, spoken out about, um, domestic and family violence, and actually put that in context through Scriptures as well, you know?Mm-hmm.And spoken about non-violence and being a way to live.So I guess I've tried really hard to make sure I just remain true to my own values, which is possibly why, at the minute, I'm finding myself quite without a congregation.But, um, I feel if, if I just morph into what people want me to be- Mm-hmm.then I just become part of the system.Well, I was gonna say, isn't that just part of the control, then- Mm-hmm.Yeah.rather than actually serving?S- so, again, very much my own opinion, this is how I see it, is you're serving your congregation.You are serving them by educating them, by, like, sharing with them around what these things actually mean, by breaking down, like you have already done for us so far, is breaking down the translation and language differences and why it's evolved the way it has.But it doesn't mean that that's absolute truth.It means that we need to come back to the, you know, come back to pre-translation, almost, as best we can, or try and re-translate it now with the information we know now.But-you are serving your congregation rather than trying to control it or play into the system or appease the system, rather, that happens to control because- Yeah.there is a certain message.And that's when it does become political, because if there's a certain message that doesn't actually look at, um, what the truth is, lit- like, almost literally sometimes, what the actual truth is, then, then that is what's political.because if there's a certain message that doesn't actually look at, um, what the truth is, lit- like, almost literally sometimes, what the actual truth is, then, then that is what's political.But your message is about educating people and, like again, like you've already gifted us with, in this conversation, is like, you know, well actually, this is also a side of Jesus.Yes, he went around- Yeah.and healed the sick and the poor and helped everyone, but he also was a radical.He also, you know, gave the middle finger on his little donkey stroll into-Jerusalem, you know.Like he, he flipped tables.He, you know, he, likeYou are educating, which can seem like a radical act- Yep.And-in many ways.Well, yeah, and I think sometimes what peopleI'm making generalizations here, but I think some people think, you know, you find a faith that means, y- if you b- if you believe in God, you're not gonna suffer.Well, hey, back to the crucifixion.Hi.We, we, we still have to go through the ebb and flow of life.Mm-hmm.And there's still gonna be difficult times.But i- i- it's like even the word believe.Mm-hmm.And I wrote a blog on this not long ago.You know, believe now has this very intellectual, you know, understanding.You know, if we believe something, we believe it.Mm-hmm.This was of the heart.This was trusting in God.This wasn't about, yeah, I believe it and I can, I can draw you a picture to show ya.You know, this is about I am trusting.I'm trusting in these ancient stories and in this life of this man that, you know, whether you believe Jesus was son of God or not, I guess we'd go down another rabbit hole then.What does incarnation mean?Yeah.You know?Oh, God.Jesus em- Did Jesus simply embody the characteristics of God?Yeah.Go on.See, there's all of these but we've got to be unafraid to go there.It's almost, what it sounds like is you have this belief which is really a faith, which is what faith is.Mm-hmm.Faith is, umHow do I wanna say this?Faith is like trust without knowing, but you still trust anyway.Yeah.It's not, I'm gonna pretend it's, uh, that, but you have this faith and this belief and, you know, this, this sect of Christianity is your conduit.Because it allowed you as a woman, you know, like the very pragmatic, functional things of allowing you as a woman to actually enter into it and, you know, become involved in that way is a conduit.But, and, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost sounds like while that is important that it, you know, in that way, it almost sounds like the, the church or the denomination itself is less important than- Yeah.the faith and the belief.It just happens to be that this was the one that allows you to, uh, like, allows it to be your conduit.Yep.Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there.I mean, I'm, I'm committed to my faith, not the institution.Mm-hmm.Yeah.Yeah.But it's within the insti- uh, I guess it's within the institution that allows me to express that faith and toUh, and again, it's I'd, I don'tI've never from the pulpit said, "This is how you are to live."Mm-hmm.I've come at it from this challenge is the way we live, and what do we need to think about?What do we need to let go of to enable us to live that way?Mm-hmm.And we each have our 0 our journey.We each have our own, you know, things that we need to surrender, um, so every time I preach, yeah, I can definitely connect some of the stuff that's going on in the world.Mm-hmm.But it still comes down to individual journey.And what is it that we need to wrestle with?Yeah.Rather than just turn up, be told, "Jesus loves you.Um, this is what you must do," it's about, okay, so it's saying this.What do we need to surrender?Mm-hmm.When we need to rethink, because if this is the living word, which it often gets referred to- Mm-hmm.that means it has to be applicable in every context.And how can homophobia, racism, sexism, how can any of that be involved in our faith?Because it- it's just not there.It- i- it's not promoted.It was radically inclusive.Yeah.I always like to talk about, sorry, and stop me if I'm waffling.No, keep going, please.There's the bit where, um, the woman calls to Jesus and wants her daughter healing.Mm-hmm.And initially, Jesus doesn't respond, and eventually he does.And he engages with her and he, he says, "You know, I've come for the children of Israel first."And the woman responds with, "Do not even the dogs get the crumbs from the table?"Now that, I've had that preached on as like Jesus was teaching the disciples.He didn't respond straight away because he was hoping the disciples would step up.Hmm.I suggest Jesus was a first-century man and was ignoring the woman, and she challenged him and she corrected him.And that, for me, is like, that seems far more feasible than Jesus testing the disciples.Well, yeah, because it's far more likely because he was human still.Um, there's a, a friend of mine who is a Mary Magdalene priestess and, and, and I learn a lot from her too, but she saysLike, I'm referencing her 'cause she says this all the time, is to be fully human and fully divine, fully human and fully divine.Mm-hmm.And Jesus was that.He was human still.And like you said, he was a first century man.And he, as divine as he was or is, he was still human and flawed, I'm sure, in many ways.Yeah.I'm sure as a kid he spoke back to Mary like, you know?Like, I'm sure that there were very human moments, and the difference is he chose to learn from them as he learned, as he went along.That's- Yeah.that's what I'm taking from that story, at least.Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and, and I think, again, what we do is we elevate the divinity- Mm-hmm.And we turn around and, "We can't possibly live as Jesus did 'cause we're just humans."Yeah.Well, so was Jesus, you know?It's like we, um, we stop ourselves- .though.Yeah, we stop ourselves from beIt's, it's almost like we give ourselvesUm, and I'm, and I'm speaking very generally here.Mm-hmm.But we give ourselves an out before we even try.Yeah.Because it's like, "Oh, that means I have to," like, again, generally speaking, "That means I have to be a better person?Oh, but he was divine, so I don't know."Yeah, I can't possibly do that."Maybe I'm human, I'm just a human."You know, like, so it's veryWe give ourselves that out of, "Well, this is why I can't try and do better or do better for others," which is where it becomes more individualistic-because of that almost divine pedestal that Jesus has been put on, and he was also just a man.Yep.I've, I've oftenSo when I'veI didn't always wear my alb, so the white robe.Yeah.But I remember one day, um, from the pulpit, saying, "You know, if Jesus was to walk in here now, he'd probably come up to me and say, 'Who do you think you are with your fancy frock?'" Yeah.You know, and we'd more likely find him in the valley.Yeah.You know?Just meeting- Yeah.people where they're at.Mm-hmm.So it'sThose are the real challenges.Mm-hmm.To living a life of faith, it's, you know, it's not necessarily fronting up to church every week to hear that Jesus loves you.It's, it's fronting up to come together as community.Mm-hmm.Challenged as community to think about, "Okay, well, what do we, what do we need to be thinking about?What do we need to wrestle with?"Yeah, I'm gonna make a very unorthodox reference here, but, um, there's a show, a Mike Flanagan show called Midnight Mass.And I, and I love it.Anyway, um, but there's a line- I'll have to let Alan know about that.He loves Mick Flanagan.Carry on.Oh, it's so good, and this has got, likeIt's Midnight Mass, so it's, it's Flanagan, like Flan Man basically wrestling with his own religious up- You know, anyway.Um, but there's a line in it that, I'm not gonna get it verbatim, but it's something like, "You're just mad that God or Jesus loves all of the rest of us just as much as he loves you."And it was to the very pious character.So, like, it's sort of, it makes me think of that in some way of, um, you know, like you said, when people go to church every week.And that's not a criticIf thatLike, religion has saved a lot of people also.Yeah.It has, it has saved so many people, so it is, it can be so important.But when people go to whatever their church is every week just to be told things like, "Jesus loves you," that becomes an individualistic thing.loves you," that becomes an individualistic thing, and we forget about how do we then take that love and let it channel through us to serve other people?Because Jesus loves all of us equally, you know?In that faith, Je- Jesus loves all of us equally, not just, you know?Yeah.So, it's, it just, I always think of that line, and there's days if I'm feeling, you know, snarky because I've, I've seen like a, uh, the Bible play a role in political decision-making, and I'm annoyed at it, you know, whatever it is.Like, there's days where I'm feeling snarky where I think about that, and go, "That's so interesting."Or there's days where, um, it's almost a comfort.And, and this is me as not, not really a religious person, but as like a, oh, Jesus, God, universe, spirit, source- Yeah.whatever the word is or even if there's a lack of word for it for some people, we are all taken care of the same.We are all cared about the same.We are all, you knowThat'Cause, uh, you know, I really don't buy into the concept of heaven and hell.I see that as part of the, the control.Mm-hmm.You know?People think they're gonna burn forever, and Jesus never preached about hell, soYeah.But I always say, you know, people like that concept as long as if they're gonna arrive in heaven, it's only the people that they like are there.Yeah.Uh-huh.You know?AndYou know, and it's like I, I've, when I've spoken about things about creation, I've said, "Do you know, if there are Pearly Gates and you get there and Saint Peter's there-" Mm-hmm.and you go, "But I sponsored another child."Hm.You know, how are we gonna respond?And he says, "Yeah, but why did you keep using plastic bags?"Yeah.You know?Because it's, it's aboutIt's bigger, you know?So it's like- Yeah.we've got to really grapple with, we've gotta care for the environment as well.We were givenIn the scriptures it says dominion, but that dominion was pastoral care.We were called- It's indigenous care.Yeah, exactly.It's indigenous care that weOh, that's a whole other- It, it, it really- Indigenous care.it really is.It's indigenous care that we keep moving away from, umAnd yeah, and, and look, I mean, I might be speaking way out of line here, but I have, uh, you know, I've looked at the Dreamtime story of creation.Mm-hmm.And I know that when the missionaries came and all the rest of it, they thought they were doing the right thing.But we forced a whole culture to let go of their spirituality- Oh, that's exactlyin order to take on, to take on the white Jesus that never actually existed.Yeah.Yeah.It, it, it'sThat speaks to, colonialism in itsThat's- Yeah.colonialism in itself, and, and yeah, teaching a whole culture, an indigenous culture, to forget their stories.Yeah.Yeah.And yet their stories are rich.Mm-hmm.And you know, uh, uh, they're, they're justThey're deep.But I mean, we've Westernized an Eastern movement.Yeah.We've Westernized and institutionalized a Western movement.You know, it'sYeah.It's so- There's so much to be said.It goes so deep.Like, but yeah, you're right, uh, in all of these ways because while it's, it's like, and I, and I feel like I can say this 'cause we spoke about this beforehand as well.Like, it's not that we're shitting on-you know, people of faith or religion itself.It's not that at all, but the way that we have individualized it, and even, even religious sects I think as well, we, we have individualized them.So they're in their own silos rather than looking at what makes them all connected and what, you know, what actually brings all, all of them together.And it's, oh, and this is the wayAgain, this is my understanding of it, not having studied theology beyond just what I've learned by default, but it'sThe commonality across all religions is treat others how you want to be treated and be kind and caring.Genuine.The golden rule.The golden rule, yeah.The golden rule.It's not just the 10th commandment.It's a golden rule.It's like why wouldn't we?And it's, you know, and then there's, you know, there's definitely, um, disagreeable content in each religion.Like, you know, in s- you know, like, but that's, that's the golden thread that connects it all.And rather than looking at, "Oh, this is what connects us.What can we learn?You know, what can we learn from ancient indigenous practices?"Like, we have the oldest living culture- Yeah.here in Australia, the oldest living indigenous culture that is beyond 60,000 years old.It is beyond that.And we still have institutions who are saying, "Oh, but this is what's right."And it's like, well, what if it wasn't this or that?What if it was, "Oh, this is how weOh, wow, we have similarities.Let's learn from each other."I mean, even down to the very detail of, like, isn't there evidence of, you know, a mass flood in several different religious texts, not just- Yeah, yeah.Christian.Yeah, yeah.So there's, um, it's in the Enuma Elish, which is a Babylonian- Mm.So, you know, theyBut again, it's-These are the narratives.Hmm.And actually, the flood story that occurs in Genesis, you can actually pull it apart and have 2 individual stories.So, it's, you know, it- these are ancient texts that we've translated and unless we're given the tools- Mm-hmm.we, we can't be, and some people are fearful to be critical of the text.Yeah.You know?You know, there are people saying that "W- well, we can't be angry with God."And I'm like, "Well, why not?"Because if God is, is beyond our finite minds, I think God's big enough- To hold that.to hold that.Yeah.It- Like, it's the people who, like, rightly so, feel angry and resentful when they lose a child or when- Yeah.horrible, awful things happen and they're like, "How can God allow this?"And again, rightly so, because that's the m- the man-made god.I don't have the answer either.I don't know.But it's the man-made god that, that we keep likening that to where it's, you know- Yeah.people are allowed to be angry.And I mean, yeah, that example of losing a, losing a child, you know, and there's been so many sort of, like, pious phrases I'm not even gonna give any air to- Mm-hmm.that get thrown out.And it's like, no.It's- It's like, this is shit.It gets to be shit 'cause we're still human.And, and people are suffering.And h- we c- no throwaway line is gonna reduce people's suffering.It's- But deep listening and compassion-and empathy will bring healing.Mm-hmm.It's like the thoughts and prayers of, you know, in the face of, um, genocide and things like that.It's the thoughts and prayers in the face of that.It's like, I understand that maybe the intention is there.But where is the real, deep conversation and the compassionate conversation?Yeah.There was a, you've just remind me, there was an a, an ad campaign for the T- I think it was for the T Foundation.Hmm.You'd see an ad, a starving child on, and it said, um, "Children can't eat sandwiches."Uh, "Children can't eat prayers."Hmm.Mm-hmm.So, prayer is definitely, it's an important thing.Yeah.I believe it can bring about transformation.it's like, you don't throw somebody who's drowning a sandwich.No.You c- It's not gonna do them any good.Yeah.And it's, and I think what the lesson, you have taken us to church today, uh, because-in the best way.This is what, I haven't been to church in years and this is exactly theprayer I needed.But it was- Yeah.But what it, to me, what I'm taking away from, from this sermon, I'm gonna call it, or from this, is, is, it's how do we deconstruct our idea of what we hear and h- and how we perform?Even if the intention is there, it's like, "I'm trying to be a good person and this is how we think being a good person is."Which is why it may sound critical, but it's not with that deep criticism and shame that you can't come back from.It's a, "Let's be critical of the behavior so we can deconstruct our idea of what it is to"Religion aside, what it is to be a good person.Like, to keep it very, very simple, it's-we, we collectively and individually, some more than others, need to deconstruct our ideas of what it is to be a good person.Because when we say we're a good person just because, for example, we go through the motions of going to church every Sunday, or we, um, we donate to, um, uh, we sponsor a child, you know, which is s- still a kind thing, you know.But, like, but, you know, if, if we just kind of look at it as a tick-the-box rather than as an ongoing behavior that comes from within of beyond ha- beyond how do I feel about me being a good person, and, oh, how do others feel about me being a person?Yeah.That's what we need to deconstruct.That's what we need to do out, in, and inside of religion.Like, you know, that's what- Yes.we need to do more of, because I think that, um, politics would be very different.I think that legislation would be very different.I think that people's everyday behaviors and the discourse and, and narrative online would be so different.Yeah.And I, and I think it's, it's going back to that, that deep listening.Hmm.Not just to yourself- Mm-hmm.but to others.But also, you know, if we're believing there's a spirit, the spirit lives within, so we also need to start listening to that intuition, that, that deep inner wisdom- Mm-hmm.that is a gift.Mm-hmm.And, you know, checking in when we sp- if we speak badly about someone, well, how would, you know, say we look at the online trolls, you know.How would I feel if that was written about me?You know, so really thinking, sitting with, and just deep listening to what's going on.And again, I've, I've said before, you know, we've got this doctrine of original sin.Now, I'm with Pelagius who was excommunicated.Mm-hmm.Because if we believe we're inherently sinful, what's the point?How are we ever gonna be a good person?God created and declared it good.Mm-hmm.So why can't we reclaim our original goodness and go, "Okay, we have the capacity to love.""We have the capacity to live non-violently."And I say it as though it is a very simple thing, and I know it's not.It's so complicated.Uh, yeah, but also, we have to start somewhere.That's it, yeah.Yeah, I Yeah.when, when willInstead of dropping bombs, are we gonna drop bread?I don't know who said that.It's not my, um, makeup, but you know, when, when is that gonna happen?Um, uh, I guess when we take some of the ego out of some of these things.Or when we speak truth to some of those institutions- Mm-hmm.that aren't always just church, right?Like, some- Right.of the other institutions that, yeah, I think it's- And, and again, uh, so going back into disability where all the deinstitutionalization happened, one of the, one of the things I've often grassled with is, grappled with is institution in and of itself is not a bad thing.But we do it fairly badly.Yeah.You know?It'sSo you think of, you know, all the terrible things that have happened in institutions, that's because the humanity do it badly.The actual offering of safe space and care is not in and of itself a bad thing.Yeah.It's the way, I guess, power is exercised, and so that's why we need to speak the truth to the powers.Mm-hmm.I think, uh, um, this goes back to your comment about original sin as well in the sense of that's where it gets confusing too, because if we are going to Hell for our sins but then also God and Jesus can forgive us our sins, then that is a hypocrisy in itself that feels likeit is just trying to control people's behavior rather than inspiring them or, you know, encouraging them orAnd, and that's where it comes into, you know, institutions- Yeah.as well as there's that control of people's behavior.Mm-hmm.And often, unfortunately, in the name of the Church, any church, which, you know, I don't think any religion is exempt from having people do outrageously awful things in the name of that religion and church, which, you know, like you, like you said, does almost the institution of the Church a disservice because it, in itself, inherently is a good thing, because it gets to be a sacred home for people in some way.Yeah.It does help people, it can save people, it can help people.And I mean save in the very literal sense.I'm talking about, you know, people who are suffering with addiction, who have literally had their lives saved through the Church, that kind of saving, not- Yeah."I'm saved, you're not," kind of.Yeah, which is, whi- It is, you know, "You're not saved if you don't become a Christian."What?What is that all about?Need it settled.And, and, you know, it's this Jesus came for the sins of the world.Again, the world.Not for your sins, Jess, or mine.Oh, my God.What about me?And it's like what, what other sins in our world?Well, for me, the sins are that there's people who are homeless and living on the streets- Mm-hmm.without the support they need.Yeah.There are people who are kicked to the margins of society for a number ofThose are the sins of the world.Mm-hmm.And so, okay, so if we are walking in Jesus' footsteps, what do we need to do?How can we be part of that transform in that?Mm-hmm.SoUgh.And, you know, it, it's, I actually, literally today have just written a blog, and it was, I always rememberSo Alan, when I first came to, started going to church, he went, "That's good for you, love.Don't expect me to go there."And now I always joke and go, "Now your wife's the vicar."I remember when he sort of like came to faith, and he did so over communion.Hmm.He sat and grappled with communion.But the people that was with him were really concerned 'cause he didn't say the sinner's prayer.And I'm like, "What even is this?"What?Jesus didn't, you know, it, it, so we've created all of these little formulas.This is, this is how you become a Christian.It's, we're so, and, and I think humanity, like our behaviors, there's a lot to be said about rituals.Like we need rituals, I think.Like there's a lot of re- even research like academically into our, how we thrive with ritual and, or how we, how we tend to thrive a lot more with ritual.But when we then use it as a, when we use ritual as a way to gatekeep- Yeah.people's access to what feels useful and good for them, that is of no harm to anyone else, that feels restrictive again.Yeah, and it is a, we put I don't know what we're trying to protect.We put rules around things.Mm-hmm.But one of my, my invitation to communion was come not because I invite you or the church invites you.Oh.Come because Christ invites you.Yeah.Come and share communion because Jesus invites you, not me.It's not the church.Mm-hmm.This is a gift.Come and share.And it's like you say, ritual, we all engage in ritual, just sometimes we just, we do it really unconsciously.Mm-hmm.Whether it's our morning cup of tea, you know, it's a ritual that we develop and it starts our day off, but we just, we, we fail to see- Mm-hmm.that this is a ritual and this is a freedom and- Yeah.and it's a gift and, you know, how often do we just stop and look at the blue sky and, yeah.Ah, honestly, that is one of my intentional rituals I have every morning is making my usually one cup of coffee I have a day with breakfast, like it's a cooked breakfast, protein.That's important.Yeah.Girl's gotta eat.Feed the girl.And then like-it's sitting outside with the dog or the dogs or, you know, and looking up and out.Mm-hmm.Like I'm really fortunate right now where I live, there's trees around.Like I'm in, you know, suburbia, but like there's trees, so I get to just look up at the trees and look at, up at the sky and look a little, there's a little bit of a horizon, you know?So it's that ritual, but that also helps me feel better, which then helps me show up in my, show up in my day better.Like it's notIt's a, it's about me, but it's also not about me.Yeah.Mm-hmm.And it's, and I mean, th- this is one of the things why I've, I've really loved sort of like going into that meditation space- Mm-hmm.is to reclaim some of those things.Yeah.You know, to guide people through that visualization and to reconnect with that inner wisdom and that spirit within.Because, and, and I do say it all very genuinely, it's so unfortunate that Christianity and a lot of faiths have got really bad raps.Yeah.But it's not because of their source.Yeah.It's because we're human.It's- And we get things wrong.Yeah.And, and for some of them, it's years of institutionalized abuse thatAnd, uh, not even at the hands of the sum- well, yes, at the hands of the Church, but also at the hands of, um, you know, parents or caregivers or family members who are caught up in that.So, you know, their children or, or siblings or whoever have that, um, religious trauma, in a way, just by, by that flow on effect.Like, it happens in so many different ways, as well as all of the ways that we are already very well aware of.Yeah.I mean, and it's something for me, I ca- I've got 2 daughters, and so I can't get my head around how, you know, parents have rejected children because they come out.Yeah.And I'm going, "Oh, well"I justSo for me, I can't get my head around it, but, uh, it's this, it's what's being taught.It's what- Mm.has been taught from the Bible as God's actual word.God put pen to paper- Mm-hmm.and wrote the book.No.that is always been a confusion for, to me.I had a, uh, family member, um, when the plebiscite was happening about the same sex marriage here in Australia, and this person, I don't remember the last time they went to church by choice that was outside of an occasion that required- Mm-hmm.that involved church.And they used that upbringing as a reason for why they were voting no in the plebiscite against same sex marriage, because, you know, it was likeAnd that is such a cognitive dissonance to me that I will never understand, because it's, it's controlling someone else in the name of something that, in this case, it's like, well, you're, there's no, not even a practice.That's just an unconscious dogmatic belief the, that isn't being reassessed at any, in any way, or, you know, considered in terms of the impact that that can have.And so, so really, and, and what you're getting then is people taking faith and making it into some superior moral.You know, that's not my way, so it's the highway.That is the crux of this entire- Yeah.conversation too.Yeah.Like, that is the crux of the entire issue as well, of exactly, exactly what you said.It's, it's when we, when we place our own faith as the superior morality- Yeah.at the expense of other people.Yeah.And it's, and like you said, in, in that particular area, it wasn't even in the Scriptures until 1946.So it, yeah, itAnd that's, it's, that's one issue that often gets grabbed hold of.It's like, uh, I think Stephen Fry put it the best way, you know.He says, "People get so offended with the word fuck."Mm."Why are we not outraged at words like war, rape, abuse?"And I justAnd so things like that really grab me and I go, "Oh, yeah," you know?Yeah.We're outraged by the wrong things.Yeah, absolutely.There's so many atrocities in this world, but what we do is we grab onto the moral high ground."I don't swear, and I don't believe in this, and I don't believe"It, it's like there's so many atrocities going on in our world that we ought to be outraged about.Mm.And our faith ought to encourage us to be outraged about the right things.Yeah.And I love that you, you shared that with your congregation as well.Like, it sounds like you are quite open in, in not just, you know, the definition and, and etymology of certain words that were translated in certain ways, but also talking about these things like equal rights, like same sex marriage, like homophobia and transphobia and bigotry and racism and, and actually shining a light on it.And it's, and it's also a really loving way to do it, because, you know, as a, as a minister to a congregation, there is a really loving element to that of, of, "Oh, I'm trying to show you something.Not control you, but I'm trying to show you something.I'm trying to literally teach you something."Yeah.And, and again, it's, if, if you think about, um, Jesus was the light of the world.Well, y- when you shine light on injustice, you expose it.Yeah.Yeah.And y- y- and then change can happen.But if we don't expose it-there's no transformation.And, and I prefer transformation to change- Yeah.because transformation just seems so much deeper and i- it's not just a quick change.It's this deep process of transforming.Mm.It's like, um, it's the difference between, like, switching a, like, flicking a light switch, which is just change, that's what we see, but the transformation is, is literally what happens behind the wall.Yeah.I don't know why that analogy came to mind, but it's like, yeah, that's it.It's a good one.Thank you.Sometimes they work.But yeah, it's like, oh, change is just the, you know, what we see is flicking the light switch and it's on and off.But the transformation, literally, it's like, transformer is an electrical term too, so I'm-astounded this worked.But the transformation is literally what happens behind the wall.Yeah.And even, you know, underground or wherever it goes from there.Yeah.It's the actual process of it which is that deeper thing.It's not just surface level, "Well, I've changed," or, "We need to change."It's our hearts, our hearts need to change.Something needs to happen within, within the walls.Yeah.You know?And- Yeah.God, I love that analogy.Oh.Hitting that one.Yeah.Oh, that's amaze- so, okay.We should let you go soon, soUm, there's a qu- 'Cause I did warn you, I can talk about this all day.I know.Me too, obviously.But, umOkay, so this is a question I used to ask guests a lot, and then I just kind of, you know, fell off.So I'm bringing it back.What isAnd, and you've kind of already answered this in a way, these 2 things in a way, anyway.But first question is, what is something you feel like personally is an area of room for improvement for yourself?For myself, uh, I guess, listening to my own wisdom.Hmm.Mm-hmm.I think y- and I think particularly, and I, I would say particularly as a woman, it's sometimes too easy to not trust our own inner wisdom, not trust that gift that we've got of intuition and spirit.So I think that's definitely something I could do more wi- of, yeah.I love that.That makes me think of, oh, uh, I might get this wrong.I think it was Pope Gregory who removed Mary Magdalene, like ord- in the 4th century or something, ordered ol- like, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene to be burnt and buried and whatever, and it's like, oh yeah, we've been dealing with that since then and then beyond- Yeah.of like, uh, your truth, like, bury it and don't- Yeah. Don't shine.Mm-hmm.Don't shine, don't share what love you have to share with the world.Um, and then to finish up with, because it's in, it's in, it's a nicer order to do this in, what's something that you feel like you do really well or that you're personally proud of?Not as a sin, just as aI think, um, it's definitely been something that's really, I guess, quite new that I've named it as that, the ability to hold space for people to just be.Hmm.Mm-hmm.So I look back now, even in the congregation, my aim was to always hold space for people to offer worship.Yeah.And now I'm trying to hold space for people to, to just be, and- To, to practice devotion to themselves.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.So I think that's something that I've really put a name to quite recently.Oh, good.I love hearing that.That's so special.Yeah.Yeah.Hmm.All right.Well, please share where people can find and follow you and what you have coming up next.I will include any links as well, butOkay.Um, so I've- I have got a blog site.I'm gonna have toUh, uh, I think I've called itIt's called Sacred Threads- Mm-hmm.A Sanctuary, and that's on Blogger.Um- I'll share the link for that.But yeah.Yeah.And that, that's where basically I'm, I'm getting to do a bit of my theology because I'm not in a placement at the minute.Um, Sacred Sankalpa-is the name of the business that I'm operating through, so offerings of meditation.And I do have, umOn the 23rd of August, I am running a Rainbow Babies Women's Circle, so holding a space for women who have experienced miscarriage and then gone on to have another child or not.So just a space to, to just meet grief, but also the joy if there's been a baby that's come after a miscarriage.So I'm holding that as well, and the details are on my website.That's very special.Thank you.Thank you so much for actually taking us to church today, and for- Anytime.yeah, for just-riffing about this with me as well.I feel like, I, I feel like it's such important conversations to have, to deconstruct, not because we're trying to control anyone and say, "Your faith is bad," but it's, it's just being aware of how that m- plays into how we lead and the leadership of the world and then how we feel and take care, take care of our own and others' wellbeing as well.So thank you so much for your time and energy.It was such a pleasure- Hmm.to have you on.I really appreciate it.Thanks, Jess.