Ep 167 - Why emotional leadership is a competitive advantage

We’ve been taught to leave our feelings at the door in leadership, but what if your emotional depth is actually your biggest strength? In this episode, I break down what emotional leadership really means, why it’s your superpower (not your weakness), and how to start integrating it without being seen as “too much.”

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Transcript

Hey, everyone.Welcome to the new and revamped version of Get Jasched, the podcast where we have bold conversations about leadership, wellbeing, and communication for leaders who wanna do things differently.I'm Jess Jasch.I'm your host, and I will be your host on this show forever and, and foremost.Welcome to the first episode back of the newly revamped and relaunched Get Jasched.I'm your host, Jess Jasch, and this is the show, the podcast where we have bold conversations about leadership, wellbeing, communication for leaders who wanna do things differently, really.When you're sick of the old status quo, we talk about how we can do it differently, and we talk about it in really robust ways.So, let's get started.In this first episode back, we're talking about some really important aspects of leadership, but in a way to help you understand why emotional leadership is the real competitive advantage.So, we've been taught thatWe- h-historically, we've been taught that emotional leadership is a bonus.It's something nice to have once we've handled th- the real work, right?It's- it's not real work itself, but it's, yeah, sure, it's nice.But the truth is, and for anyone who's explored this already, and if you're listening to this, you probably likely have, um, emotional leadership is the real work.Uh, it is not easy.It is sometimes the hardest work you will do, um, but it's also your edge in, in today's business world.It can give you a competitive advantage and also give you an understanding that, of the people that you're working with, that helps you thrive and succeed better in business, even down to your bottom line.And there's a reason why we're talking about this now.I've been talking about this for years, but there's a reason I'm bringing it up again now, is because it matters now.It has mattered.It's mattered for a long time, and it matters because the status quo of the old leadership styles, and I am generalizing when I say this, but the status quo of the old leadership styles, uh, has always been seen as, like, the strongman approach, right?Um, but when we look at it, th- the hidden cost is the emotional strain of that, and that's not always been valued before.But the more that we understand the impact of emotional strain on ourselves personally, individually, our health, uh, our quality of life, our enjoyment, our quality of life at work too, and how it impacts businesses and teams and, and workplaces, the more we understand that, the more we are realizing collectively how important it is.Um, when we have things like burnout, disconnection, performative leadership, performative leadership, right?Not lead- not real leadership, but the leadership that performs, that says, maybe we've heard it recently, I don't know.It says, "Oh, I'm a strong man, so therefore I am a good leader," no matter what that actual leadership is carried out as or like.Um, when we have these things, the burnout and the disconnection, the performiti- like the performance rather than effectiveness, um, these are signs that we're overdue for a new model or overdue to continue developing our old model.W- we just have to be willing to.We have to actually look at that and, and realize and decide that there is more that we can do with this.Uh, there's a Gallup survey that happened, I believe, in 2023, said that 59% of global employees are quiet quitting.Quiet quitting.And if you've been around like the LinkedIn traps in the last few years, you would have heard that, um, that saying, that quiet quitting statement, and because it's been a big part of the conversation.And what quiet quitting is, is, this is my own definition of it, but it is when people are not feeling fulfilled in their work or in their role or, or not feeling valued, so they are just quietly easing off the effort.Whether that's warranted or not, that's not the conversation here, but they are quietly easing off and just leaving, but real quiet.They've tried.So, that's the ver- that's the, the very simplistic definition of it.I'm sure there are a lot of better definitions of it out there, but, but you can imagine the issue that this has for workplaces.It costs a lot to replace employees, to replace team members, umIt costs a lot.Having worked in leadership and recruitment before, it- I, I did the numbers for a couple of clients, just out of curiosity.Like, I sort of worked it out of what that downtime, like that, that time of not having someone in the role, and then, and then the time of training up someone new or, or onboarding someone new.Even if they're already trained, onboarding someone new into the role, that time that it takes.And you kind of, you know, you divide that many weeks of, in most cases, months, um, up into the percentage of the year that that would be, that that person could be adding to revenue, or, you know, whatever that metric is, and it ends up being quite a lot.So it's not great for businesses when there is a high turnover, right?If we're talking very pragmatically here for a moment, it's not great when businesses have a high turnover, especially when it's unnecessary turnover, and especially when it's turnover of high performers, or people that are valuable and are a good fit otherwise, right?But what we know, what we do know, especially through research, what we do know is, we've heard this, we've probably heard this saying before, but people leave bosses, not jobs.People will leaveenvironments even if they love the rolemost of the time.This is obviously not a black and white.But they will follow leaders or they will follow environments where there is emotional presence and there is emotional awareness, because that is what people are looking for.We have realized and recognized that it is simply not enough for many people now to just show up, not have their needs met, and feel satisfied with that, you know.And people deserve to feel satisfied in their, in their work and what they do.So I want you to think for a moment as we're talking about this, have you ever worked under a leader who couldn't regulate their emotions?'Cause that is one of those signs.That is one of those things, where if the leader cannot regulate their emotionsAnd I'm not saying a leader who becomes dysregulated, right?Because w- when- we're not, um, we're not criticizing people for having very real human experiences, which can include emotional responses and, at times, dysregulation.We're not demonizing dysregulation.Dysregulation is important in a lot of ways, but- because it serves a purpose, right?But it's when we s- when, when they, leaders in, in this case, in this conversation, when they stay in dysregulation and then those reactions, not responses, but those reactions impact everyone around them, including the people that they lead, that's where it becomes an issue.When they are unaware of it, right, when they are unaware of that dysregulation of their emotions, so their emotions are just spiking out or exploding out in different ways, or bursting out in all different ways, with all different impacts, that's when it becomes an issue as a leader.That's when that self-awareness is needed, because with self-awareness, which we'll get to, that's when they can at least name it, even while they're still working on whatever they're working on.And that makes a difference.So have you wer- ever worked under someone who has been like that, or with, even alongside someone who has been like that?And how did that impact how you felt showing up?Did it impact your trust, your creativity, your willingness to speak up?Some people find that, ummake them feel quite combative in response, and I'm not saying any particular response is right or wrong, but some people can find that that makes them quite, feel quite combative in response because they're like, "No, it's this."Like almost like they feel like they have to be stepping into the role for them, for that leader.And that then perpetuates the issue, particularly within a cultural environment.So consider whether maybe you have been that leader in the past, and we're not, we're not shaming here.We are just bringing to light because shame can't exist in the light anyway.But we're just bringing to light why this is important so that we can all collectively do a little better, even, and, and you may be doing better already, but this is just, in this ca- in that case, this is to, um, validate that for you.So have a think about whether you have worked with a leader or someone like that, or if you have been that someone, and how did you notice the trust or creativity or willingness to speak up, or the, the social emotional safety?How has that impacted, how were all of those things impacted by that kind of leadership?You might even consider governments that might seem to be obviously displaying that lack of emotional leadership.Who knows?I'll let your mind go where it wants to go.So what is emotional leadership?We need to talk about, like if we're gonna talk about it, we need to find a way to actually explain and explore for ourselves, but also using the research, what that is.Um, 'cause emotional leadership I think gets a bad rap, um, and I think that's just because we misunderstand it, and I've gone through, you know, like in the past I've misunderstood it until I understood it, because that's what I study and that's what I learn and that's what I work in now obviously, but you know, before I was doing this work, I can kind of look back to moments where I'm like, I was aware that my work was leading me this way, even if I, I wasn't even close to it yet,even if I wasn't aware of what that was.Um, I can see those signposts along the way in retrospect.But one thing, one of my biggest learnings was emotional leadership isn't just about being nice or positive.I have, I think I still have it somewhere, I have a giant, um, goodbye card from one place I worked at where virtually, like l- literally almost every single comment, you know, every single note in that goodbye card made a comment about how positive I was, and this was when I was in my early 20s.So I was really diving into that who am I, who do I want to be, who do I want to show up in the world?Be positive, positive, positive, positive.And yes, it was toxic positivity.I didn't realize that.That's how I learned it.Look at us getting to learn as we go and, and learn by doing.But, um, I thought being nice and positive was the way to go.And I am glad that it seemed, like on one hand I am glad that it seemed to make such a positive impact on the people around me.That's good.Like that is the good part of it.That is, I think that's the impact I was trying to have.I wanted to do that for others, but it was at my own expense, um, because I, I was stuck in the, the, we'll say toxic positivity where I was bypassing, um, actual real experiences and, and that's how I kind of learnt.So, you know, emotional leadership isn't the bad rap that it gets that is, you know, being nice or being positive no matter what.Um, what it really is, is it's about being emotionally intelligent and self-aware enough to lead with clarity, and that means that especially emotional intelligence that combines self-awareness, um, self-regulation, again without putting regulated states on apedestal at all, but just the ability to in some way practice self-regulation, at least practice it, and interpersonal awareness, or as I like to call it, social skills for adults.Because we teach dogs and children social skills, but then for some reason when we reach workforce age, that stops being social skills and that starts being networking skills, which I think is bullshit.Uh, so n- networking skills are important, yes, but uh, that is different to social skills, and we, we kind of cut ourselves off and stop learning the important things in that way.So that is, that is really what models of emotional intelligence cover.Um, there'sA lot of models- well, there's not a lot, but there are core models that have explored this.One of them is Byron's EQ model, which shows that it's more than empathy.Empathy is important, but it's also, uh, emotional intelligence, EQ, emotional quotient, like IQ is intelligence quotient, EQ, emotional quotient, um, is more than just emp- empathy.It's adaptability, it's decision making and stress management.And again, it's doing those things, m- a- and, and this is, you know, in part my own perspective on this as well, um, but it's doing those things not in a reactive space.It's the ability to do those things in, when you need to react or respond, but it's also doing them proactively before there is an issue.So, it's stress management, but also mitigation or, you know, like before something happens so that maybe it doesn't need to happen.It's all of these things.And then there is emotion regulation theory, which is another, uh, model, but, uh, Grosse's Model of e- of Emotion Regulation Theory is about leaders who regulate well model stability for teams, they model stability for workplace environments or for homes, all of those different things.So it's, it's, it's these elements of how we handle ourselves in relation to our emotions and how that thenIt's not controlling.We're not sociopaths.Well, most of us aren't.But like, it's not controlling, over-controlling ourselves, but just being aware.It's just being fucking self-aware, A little bit.So it's how we do that in relation to our emotions and in this case, in relation to our leadership, whether you are a leader in a workplace, maybe you're a leader because you're a parent, because parents are leaders, or aunties and uncles, any, you know, there's leaders there.Um, you could be an athlete.So it's a team kind of leadership.You could be a soldier of some kind.And so it's that kind of whatever, whatever it is, this is why it's really relevant for across the board.So these things, this self-awareness helps, but this emotion regulation makes all the difference, especially in high-pressure moments.So I have told this story before, I'm gonna tell it very briefly in this case, but there was one time where it just came down to breathing and I didn't really, I was, I was just starting out in my business by this stage.So, you know, I was aware of emotional intelligence and I'd been exploring it, but this is where I was starting to put it into frameworks, um, that were actually inspired by, uh, another example that I could give, um, where someone I was working with, you know, inspired it through their own poor behavior, shall we say.but one example I always come back to is just a really, uh, uh, I come back to it because it was such a f- a felt experience in my body.And I'd been teaching yoga for a, uh, uh, a year or 2, so I'd been doing yoga for quite a few years at this point.And there was a conversation that was had where it was a high pressure moment, and I didn't see it coming, except I think part of me did see it coming.Um, but I wouldn't have, uh, not cognitively, my body knew.My body felt it coming, but I didn't see it coming.So then when this person said something that was like the moment I needed to respond, if I reacted, it wouldn't have gone well for anyone.Like, and I don't mean, that wasn't even a threat, right?But like, it wouldn't have gone well, it wouldn't have been useful for anyone.It wouldn't have been helpful for anyone.There would've been, it would've been harder to get to a resolution.But what had happened, and I can't tell you how long it was going on for, it could be a minute, could have been a few minutes.I couldn't tell you.This was long enough ago now too that I, I really couldn't tell you.But what had happened is, as this other person was talking, before they said the thing, as this other person was talking, I was having this awareness.Like, part of me was listening, trying to understand what they were getting to.I had this awareness of my body starting to take those deeper abdominal breaths as if I was doing it on purpose, as if I was in a class, as if I was, you know, demonstrating it and going, "We breathe in deep, and then we exhale slow."And I was just aware, my body started doing this all on its own.And this is just my experience, right?But it's because I'd been practicing breathing and because I'd been teaching that as part of the practice that it, you know, it was probably a, an easily accessible regulation skill that my body was like, "Oh, we know this.Let's just do this."But it, it was breathing on its own, so that then by the time the thing was said that I needed to respond to, I was able to respond to it, even though it felt high pressure, even though I don't particularly enjoy conflict.I'm a lot better at it now, and I take it a lot less personally now too.Um, but it's notIt doesn'tIt's not where I thrive.IIn, in the sense of, wellAnyway.It's not, it's not my favorite thing to experience.Um, butSo, my voice was shaking, but I was able to still name the thing.I was able to still respond in the way that I needed to so that we could get to a quicker resolution that also saved my ass a bit in that, in that moment too.So, just that awareness of emotional regulation meant that that moment didn't escalate.They didn't particularly like my response, because I had to tell them they were wrong and why they were wrong.Um, so that was satisfying on my end because I had receipts in, in a sense and being like, "Well, actually, it's this."Um, but it, you know, they didn't particularly like the response, but it did allow the resolution a lot quicker and s- and smoother because I was able to be clearer about it, even if they weren'tRegardless of the if they were or weren't.In this case, they weren't really clear.They justI was able to be clear about it.So this is why it's really important to be able to tap into those things, even when it feels heightened for you as well.It's important for that.Um, the reasonSo we know emotionalSo we've explored emotional leadership is important, yes.This is why it's important, yes.But what's that got to do with companies, with organizational well-being?Um, there's a fewLook, there's a few different positive psychology frameworks that speak to this as well, but before we get into that, we know that leaders influence culture.I said this to aI said this to a client this week.A fish either swims or rots from the head first.It's not my quote.Um, I didn't make that up myself.But we also know exactly what that means when we say it.A fish swims or rots from the head first.So, y- you as a leader, you get to choose.You get to explore what that is for you.So, you as a leaderI thinkI, I have the belief that everyone influences culture, no matter the role.Um, that's where we all play a role in leadership in our own way, even if you don't have the title of leadership.And leaders in particular, we also know that you could have the, the most w- well, emotionally well team, but if the leader is not very good at that, if that is not a skill that they have, that is where you see a lot of issues, right?And, and there's alsoIt can happen the other way too.But leaders do influence culture because they do have the authority.They have the decision-making authority in many cases, and the influential authority, and they're also across a lot more people thanYou know, depending on the size of the team, they're usually across a lot more people than, than team members, other team members, um, that sit, you know, in different areas on the org chart.So, emotionally grounded leaders then help to build more sustainable, human-centric cultures which people thrive in better, which people flourish in better, which people want more of.If we go back to the quiet quitting and that whole conversation, that's what people want more of.Uh, theAnd the research shows that high EQ, high emotional intelligence in leadership does equal better performance, so that should be enough, right?As a convincer, if you needed convincing.But better per- pe- better performance, lower turnover, whichAs we've said, turnover costs businesses money, so if you decrease that, if you have lower turnover, you're saving money and higher trust, which is really, really important.So-These are, these are how they relate to organizational well-being and also, uh, organizational flourishing, not just internally, but even, again, 'cause it matters, uh, for businesses, even in the bottom line, it can help with that.So, the frameworks that it can link to, um, there's Luthien's Psychological Capital Framework, which is hope, efficacy, resilience and optimism.Um, there's the PERMA framework, uh, from Martin Seligman.So PERMA is an- a mnemonic.It's a mnemonic.I was gonna say acronym, but it's a mnemonic.No, it's, yes, it is.My English skills are sufficient.Uh, PERMA.So it's positive emotion, engagement, relationships, meaning, and accomplishment, right.So, the PERMA framework suggests that when we can address each of these things, that is where we flourish and we experience more well-being in that environment.So, that could be in your own personal life, that could be within your family unit, it could be within your to- sports team, it can be within your work environment.So, that's why when we address each of these things, when people feel, uh, a- a generally healthy level of positive emotion, when they feel engaged, when they have good relationships, when they feel like they have meaning and purpose, and when they get to experience the feeling of accomplishment, which also speaks to neurotransmit- neurotransmitters like dopamine and reward, right?We have this feeling, this is when we, this- this framework suggests that this is when we can experience and set ourselves up for more well-being.So, again, this is the relation to organizational well-being.This is why it's so important.Um, and l- it's, it has been said, I think it was on TalentSmart, it was said that leaders with high emotional intelligence are 3 times more effective in managing complex change.And we know, so notice how I'm, there's a balance, like I'm going between the well-being as well as the very pragmatic because they are related.We know that change management is often one of the, the make or break moments of businesses, especially when there's things like restructures involved, or even when a key team member does leave for whatever reason, even if it's not for a negative reason, even if it's not for an adverse reason.Um, when a key team member does leave, it can, that change, which isn't so complex, but that change can impact, potentially impact the rest of the team and how they feel.So, when you have a leader with high emotional intelligence, you, you will likely be way more effective in managing that change even when it's complex change as well.So, something to noodle on.Something to noodle on as we get to the next point, because it is, I've already named it, the elephant in the room, but it is, it is easier said than done, because emotional, emotional leadership, and I don't mean a leader who cries all the time and is unhinged and obviously needs professional support to a high degree.But emotional leadership in the context of how we've been talking about it today is hard.It's worth it, but it's hard.It's not easy.It can be challenging.It can be really re- rewarding, but it can be f- challenging.It can be a, "Well, cool, I'm on board.How do I do that?"Um, we acknowledge first that, especially in leadership styles like the command and control kind of culture of leadership, it is not necessarily going to be natural for most people who were raised in that kind of culture of command and control, or who, um, got their leadership legs in that kind of culture.It's not necessarily going to be natural.Um, and it's also, I'll make jokes about things, but it's not even, it's shitting on, I'm shitting on the culture for sure, but I'm not shitting on the people unless I'm directly shitting on that person.And we know.But the, the culture itself is generally we do the best we can with what we know, generally speaking.The, the trouble is when we know more and when we learn more, and then we don't do more based on what we know, that, and, and that can be rife in leadership, especially the more public you go.Uh, but it's not natural for people in that command and control culture, and it can be hard to look at new information in this way and go, "Oh, I need to change everything."But that is, but that is necessary sometimes.That's adaptive leadership, and adaptive leadership is important because that's what leadership should be regardless of the culture.It should be adaptive, it needs to be.But there, but it, that aside, the reason it is not easy, so some of the reasons, right?There could be a multitude.The reasons it's not easy is because it can require vulnerability, and I'm not saying that you should, as a leader, sit around in a circle and tell everyone, including your own, like your own personal woes, right?That is not, don't, don't misunderstand me.That is not what I am saying or suggesting at all.But it does require vulnerability to acknowledge, even with yourself, vulnerability to acknowledge, "Ooh, I don't feel"What's a nice way to put?"I don't feel optimal.I don't feel as optimal as I should feel."Oh, okay.That feels vulnerable because as a leader we are also taught that we should always have the answers, which means always feel good and always be ready and always, always, always.And sometimes because we're human, we're human first, we don't, and that can feel vulnerable depending on, especially depending on your environment.Especially if, um, you are one of those change makers in this way in your culture and in your environment.Um, I, like, I and many other people always say like, "Leaders go first."Leaders do go first.We are the ones that sometimes literally pave the way or hack the way through, you know?And I always give the analogy of, um, like hiking trails or walking paths through, uh, not even wilderness, but just through more wild areas or through just nature that you can kind of, if enough, if enough people go one way, you can kind of start to see that little goat track of, you know, of where they've walked and that nature has adjusted around and allowed that.And to create that path, someone has to go first.Someone has to see a potential way there and go, "Ooh, let's try this."So that can feel vulnerable.Um, it requires a willingness to be seen.So it requires the vulnerability and then a willingness to be seen, potentially even in that vulnerability, a willingness to be seen to go first.And as leaders, technically that should, quote "should," I don't wanna should all over you, but should come naturally.But this is different because this feels personal, right?So it's a willingness to be seen and it requires s- slowing down sometimes.And I don't mean going slow, I just mean sometimes it, maybe pausing is a better word.Pausing and assessing to feel before acting or reacting.So it's a pause and there's strength in that pause.Um, Viktor Frankl, Dr.Viktor Frankl who wrote Man's Search for Meaning uh, was an Auschwitz survivor, a psychotherapist and many other things.And, uh, he has a quote in there that I always use, but I always in the moment, like right now when I don't have it in front of me, forget it verbatim, but he basically talks about how there's a pause between our reaction and our response.And in that pause lies our freedom because we get to choose our response rather than being at the mercy of our reaction.That's my summary of it.So, you have a freedom and a strength in that because you are then choosing how you want to respond even if there is still a reaction playing out.Even if, and we all know this feeling, we think the reaction would just feel really satisfying because this, that or the other.And, and the response is actually what's helpful.That's being a leader, but that's what it requires.Still choosing the response rather than being at the mercy of reaction or feeling the pressure to act quickly just to see.This is hard because there is the fear that it'll make us seem less respected, um, which is challenging, especially in highly competitive arenas too.But what it does is it builds deeper respect.So it's not hesitating, it just builds d- deeper respect.So if you consider, for example, and this is a very, uh, a light, fairly benign example, but if you consider, if you are someone, a team member, who has to ask your leader for something.And I say your leader because I- I don't like the wording "your boss".And I've had, I've had bosses, literally bosses before who were the owner of the company who didn't like me referring to them as my boss.We simply worked together.But just for the sake of this example, if you have a leader that you have to go to and ask something, and you want a certain outcome, and that leader pauses and actually considers it, and they still say no, right?So you still don't get the outcome that you want, but they have paused and considered it.Doesn't that make you feel more trust in their decision, even if you still don't agree with it, than if they just reacted and went, "No, no, no, absolutely not," without even considering it?And this isn't about helping you to get the outcome you want in that way, but in the sense of, as a leader you develop more trust when you pause enough to consider something.You develop more respect for your decisions, even when people disagree with them because they can see and experience you actually considering it.So as the l- if you're the leader yourself, you can ask yourself in those moments, "What exactly am I feeling?"And not just stressed or frustrated, but it's- it's allowing yourself to acknowledge and check in and go, "What is the reaction?What's the flavor of the emotion?What's the color?What's the texture?What's it feel or sound like?"You know, just whatever descriptive words you can find, 'cause this helps you then acknowledge it, which helps you then choose your response more independently of it.With it, but not because of it.Research shows that this improves your ability to regulate and respond, not just react.SoI feel like hopefully we're all on the same page here.Probably preaching to the choir, but this is, I want to keep saying it's your edge moving forward.This is your, if you need it in this term, this is your competitive advantage.Um, I would say this is what makes your life easier at work especially, which then we know makes your life easier at home, is you retain people.People are happier, they're thriving, they're flourishing while they're doing better, faster.Warranted trust, not manipulated trust.You create cultures that people want to be a part of, so s- maybe it's easier to attract people to work for you as well, or work with you rather.All of these things are really useful competitively in business, but they are also useful for your- your experience at work.So it isn't a nice to have.It's not, "Oh, it's nice.Let's just get there when we get there," because you'll never actually get there unless you're aiming for it.But it's not just nice to have, it is, it gets to be the future of credible sustain- I was going to say sustainable leadership, but as I learnt recently at the, at the World Congress, there's a better word to use which is right in front of our faces, and that's regenerative leadership.It's how are we putting into the things that we are also receiving from, so it regenerates, not just sustains, but there's this future of, of that.And also, on a personal note, it- it's also what helps you as the leader, like so yes, it helps your team, absolutely, but remember it also helps you- helps you as a leader avoid burnout.And I'm not saying it stops all of those experiences completely, right?But this is what can support you at least, so then you can notice the signs of some of these things and- and take, you know, give yourself what you need sooner at the very least, right?But it helps you as a leader.It helps you avoid or diminish burnout, or that feeling of depletion where you get home on a Friday night or you log off on a Friday night and you're just fucking exhausted and you have nothing to like- you have nothing to give yourself or your family over the weekend.I remember when I was still a full-time employee many years ago, uh, I generally liked my job and I had a good relationship with my managing director as well.It was great in many ways.And, in reflection, Friday nights were not, like and I was in my 20s, right?But Friday night's not the night for me to go out.I was tired.I was always tired, exhausted on Friday night.And I understand a lot better about myself and my needs now, but what this does is helps you to avoid that burnout and that feeling of depletion because you're noticing sooner, and also stops you from becoming a performative leader which doesn't actually have any impact at all.It- it has no impact, so why would you do it?And if anything, it comes with more cr- often valid criticism than not.'Cause it's really important to remember that, if- if nothing else take- take this away from it.People don't want perfect leaders, they want present ones.Yes, they want someone who's relatable, but they also want someone they can look up to, but not perfect, not on a pedestal.They want a leader who is present, who helps them as well, who actually leads, not just i- is there to look up at and to admire.We- we don't do that.We don't do that anymore.So they want present ones.So thanks for coming t- thanks for h- listening if you got all the way to the end.Thank you so much for joining me and for listening.I'm so happy we're back.Oh my God, it's- it's so exciting to be back doing the podcast and- and I have so many special episodes and special guests planned for you.Our next episode is one of those special guests, and we are talking about, um, their experiences in fleeing, uh, fleeing the Taliban-led country of Afghanistan and how that has informed his advocacy and his own leadership in his own way.So it's a- it's a real conversation, let me tell you.Um, but there are so many other special guests that I have planned for you that are coming in the next few episodes as well.Um, happy to be back and I'm so happy to have you here with me.Please share this episode if you enjoyed it.Please share it.You can share it to your stories or link it to wherever or share it with your friends or someone that you think will get something out of it.That when you share something, it helps more people reach this information naturally the more it is shared, and not just because of your share, not just because of the people who reach your share, but because of the analytics and the algorithm and all of the things that, you know, in the background that I'm sure I understand to a degree of, but I also, you know, it just happens on its own.So please share this episode and if you got something out of it and you think that someone else will get something out of it, reflect on what kind of leader you want to be, if you like, if you want to sort of reflect on what you could do, and you could already be on this path, right?You could- could already be doing this kind of leadership and, you know, it could be the me preaching to the choir situation, which is highly likely, but also you might feel a little inspired about what that next layer could be, and know that, know and remember there is no perfection of it.It is purely only simply practicing, practicing it.So tune in for the next episode and I will see you next time.